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DAE think the part of the FAQ concerning cannabis use as it pertains to meditation is a little close-minded and judgemental? (self.Meditation)

submitted ago by Lets_Do_This_

Can I smoke cannabis (not for medical reasons) and meditate?

No.

Meditation is not about getting high, it's about being free. Free from distractions and mental habits that do not serve us.

Some think they are meditating when smoking marijuana. It's not meditating, it's just getting high.

Just comes off as really negative to me.

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[–]dopafiend 65 points66 points ago

Student: Teacher, may we smoke while we meditate?

Teacher: stern No! Don't be ridiculous, meditation must be your only intention

pause

Student: May we meditate while we are smoking?

Teacher: smiles Of course! you can meditate whenever you like, no matter what else you choose to do in life

--People in here are up their own ass about that stuff, if you are giving up intoxicants in the following of a path then I can respect that, but I myself am not, and meditation is seriously synergistically amazing with substances.

TL;DR Siddhartha ain't even tried LSD

[–]DuckTruck 10 points11 points ago

This little story is so perfect.

[–]veltrop 13 points14 points ago

This little story is a common response on the topic. Perhaps it should be the content of the FAQ.

[–]chaosmage 8 points9 points ago

Good idea.

I think the FAQ should also mention that drugs can give a kind of preview of what some changes in consciousness feel like, and that experienced meditators can feel the same effects - and more - without taking anything.

[–]dopafiend 2 points3 points ago

Yeah, third time I've written it up in here.

I wish I could find an older post of it, I wrote it quite nicely once.

[–]veltrop 2 points3 points ago

Funny, because there's a post on the frontpage right now about reddit's terrible search engine

[–]avid_redditor 8 points9 points ago

This is beautifully put.

One can explore meditation while smoking or enjoying the effects of smoking, but I think that smoking is not ideal for the practice of meditation because when you smoke and meditate the aperture of your mind is being opened primarily by the THC of the cannabis as opposed to being open through the practice of mindfulness.

I often think of it in these terms, marijuana is an excellent way to open the door to deep introspection and/or mindfulness. It allows you to peer beyond the veil, to see deeper. But, the goal of meditation is to arrive at that place without the help of intoxicants. The goal is to be able to go deeper with just mindfulness, it's about self mastery. Smoking takes you someplace, but also, in some sense, takes us chemically hostage. We are not in full control. We do not get the full the benefits of self-mastery.

I am not making a value judgement here. Everything I say comes from a lot of reflection on my personal marijuana use and meditation practice.

Do what feels right to you... But, also explore the alternatives, so to know the world more fully.

[–]urmomwasabadlay 3 points4 points ago

agreed. It's not about being "intoxicated" for me at all but exploring meditation on multiple levels of consciousness. I get something different out of meditating vs meditating high versus meditating without sleep for 3 days vs meditating while fasting etc...

[–]whyofry 17 points18 points ago

It does seem a little judgemental! I liked what Aldous Huxley had to say about mushrooms, rather than cannabis, combined with meditation:

"Is there any connection," Will asked, "between what you've been talking about and what I saw up there in the Shiva temple?"

"Of course there is," she answered. "The moksha-medicine takes you to the same place as you get to in meditation."

"So why bother to meditate?"

"You might as well ask, Why bother to eat your dinner?"

"But according to you, the moksha-medicine is dinner."

"It's a banquet," she said emphatically. "And that's precisely why there has to be meditation. You can't have banquets everyday. They're too rich and they last too long. Besides, banquets are provided by a caterer; you don't have any part in the preparation of them. For your everyday diet you have to do your own cooking. The moksha-medicine comes as an occasional treat."

[–]usicafterglow 2 points3 points ago

For anyone interested, this is from Huxley's book called Island. He wrote it on his deathbead and he considered it his seminal work, not Brave New World. It's a fantastic read.

If Brave New World was his great dystopic vision, Island was his idea of a utopia.

[–]whyofry 0 points1 point ago*

Indeed! I should have mentioned where it was from. Exceptional read I thought. I can imagine it becoming one of my "life bibles". Highly recommended for frequenters of this subreddit.

[–]sacca7 1 point2 points ago

You could start another reddit for this. I think it would be popular.

[–]PropaneFitness 5 points6 points ago

Do what you want guys. It's not like there are meditation rules.

[–]federvar 5 points6 points ago

I've consuming less and less marihuana since I'm a meditator, but it has come naturally, not by following any rule. I think that, after years of meditation, everybody tend to be close to the five precepts, but not because they told you not to do anything. The precept that talks about "intoxicants", not about a specific substance. For me, advertising is an intoxicant (I'm writing this from my parents house, where tv is on all day long, and I feel almost dizzy). Do you avoid adds?

[–]moozilla 1 point2 points ago

The precept that talks about "intoxicants", not about a specific substance.

From Wikipedia:

"I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness."

I think that is pretty clearly referring to alcohol.

[–]federvar 1 point2 points ago

I learn my precepts in a vipassana 10 days retreat: five precepts here. But I know there are other buddhist ways of seeing this. I think they are interpreting Buddha words more than quoting them, but I am not sure...

[–]pwncore 23 points24 points ago*

Yes clearly, I've argued against this stance many times.

Many "traditional" or "legitimate" forms of meditation also encourage the user to experience reality through altered states of consciousness via psychotropics.

http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_spirit2.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_spiritual_use_of_cannabis

http://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=Buddhism+and+cannabis&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

It's a dogmatic stance that is probably taken either for politically correct reasons, or the mods feel their views on meditation the "correct" method any insight gained through alternative experience inherently tainted.

Or it could be as simple as simplifying the material for the lowest common denominator, you don't want some derp coming in here for serious help with meditation only to come away thinking getting high all the time is akin to proper practice.

[–]csmithers 5 points6 points ago*

Or it could be as simple as simplifying the material for the lowest common denominator,

i.e. the political answer. this is trying to appeal to as many people as possible so that the answer loses its relevance.

My view on drugs is that drugs are a deterrent to awareness although you can build awareness in spite of drugs up until a certain point. Meditation + drugs don't actually do anything other than provide a contrast of knowing what you are not and who you are not. If you haven't figured out who or what you are not, they may assist you find this. For those who have found who and what they are not, it will only test their awareness rather than enhance it.

any insight gained through alternative experience inherently tainted

Finding mystical life changing experiences? That's all you and the meaning you put behind it. Unfortunately insight generally can't be expressed into words despite people's attempts to. It's a reflection of something that has changed from a spiritual experience (which is true), but the words and meaning you gather from it are not necessarily true. Take these words as a reflection that someone has changed, but their interpretation of what has changed is subjective and you will never truly know what has happened.

[–]pwncore 3 points4 points ago*

You only know who you are, when you know who you are when you're not you.

edit I think I detect a flawed perspective, *the most common incorrect belief I find anywhere, from anyone in all systems of belief or states of consciousness. I find it in myself all the time.

That is, you believe that everyone is like you. Or at least, similar enough that your experience is parallel enough to make these assumptions about reality.

You juxtapose your own experience upon the other without knowledge, I assume (because its true for us all) that all input you get on the subject is filtered by these beliefs as well, so you're less likely to discover when someone has a unique experience that is unlike your own.

[–]be_mindful 0 points1 point ago

for me, meditation is about exploring the self. i have learned a lot from teachers and study of the "traditional" or "legitimate", but if you're not branching out and exploring on your own, i feel like you're missing the point.

Buddha may have found enlightenment from regimen espoused by the legitimate sects. i'm not buddha. who knows where i will find my own sense of self?

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points ago

I have some of my most personal realizations and improvements while smoking weed. That and some ambient music has triggered some of the most life changing thoughts while meditating.

Also, I don't follow any kind of school or train of thought. I'm a freelancer that doesn't believe in tying my meditation progression to a closed path with only one direction in it.

[–]Jamjaro 12 points13 points ago

It's just unnescessary. You don't need to get intoxicated to attain heightened comfort or clarity, your mind just wants the intoxicants. There is nothing stopping you from baking and meditating, just understand that you can probably do better without it.

[–]HopscotchWillie 2 points3 points ago

If anyone wants to hear what a real Yogi and Mystic from India thinks about smoking Marijuana, here's the link Sadhguru on Marijuana

[–]the_real_kino 0 points1 point ago

aving smoked hardcore for years and quit now, i agree with what he says. you can really tell from the comments on that youtube video and here who are the ones smoking weed.

in my experience weed is very psychologically addictive, so lets not bother trying to change people cause itll make it worse, let people do what they want

[–]WitheredTree 3 points4 points ago*

Buddhism has restrictions about intoxication, mainly because the monks need to keep from alienating the public, and set a good example.

r/Meditation is not r/Buddhism

You can meditate no matter who you are, what you do, or how old you are. I would be happy to see heroin addicts trying to meditate if they felt it might help them.

Why should r/meditation discourage anyone from meditating with a bunch of judgmental BS ???

[–]random_story 2 points3 points ago

Up to the individual

[–]BuddhistJihad 2 points3 points ago

I found meditating while on a combination of MDMA and cannabis to be one of the nicest experiences of my life. Different strokes etc.

[–]eagreeyes 7 points8 points ago

Wow, I'm shocked. I expected some skepticism in the FAQ but not outright dismissiveness.

[–]xoxoyoyo 6 points7 points ago

Ultimately you can do whatever works for you. But it seems for a lot of people I have known, while they were doing cannabis, it was a demotivater in their life. True, it may not affect you that way, and it might be that my experiences then were not representational of cannabis users in general. I don't know. That being said, I would generally say that drugs should only be used in a ritual type context and not as a prelude to get into a meditative frame of mind. Meditation as is is its own drug, but a natural and good one. You should not have to pile on the drugs, it really points to something that needs exploration

[–]Jamjaro 5 points6 points ago

Agreed, if I want to take drugs when I meditate I would need to ask 1) why do I feel the need to add more to my meditation experience than what I can naturally attain now? And 2) If I regularly smoke weed and decide I should try meditation, maybe the reason is that I'm not completely comfortable getting high and need something else to make it feel right?

[–]half-empty 1 point2 points ago*

Smoking as such is not very relevant to meditation, not anymore than the air you breathe or the water you drink. What matters is finding out whether it is a hindrance to your practice or not. It may be useful at some point, and then you move past the point where you needed it, or you never liked smoking, and meditation allows you to enjoy it. Who knows? It's for you to find out, not for anyone else to tell you.

[–]ivegotaface 9 points10 points ago

If you meditate as a part of Buddhist philosophy, the dharma is explicitly clear on intoxicants. It's not close minded, nor is it judgmental. It's just not conducive to meditation or mindfulness, any more than any other habit is.

[–]azizexe 27 points28 points ago

Is this a subreddit specifically Buddhist?

[–]Irrelevant_Panda 1 point2 points ago

That's what it has become and that is why I left.

edit: After reading this thread, I'm adamant on saying: I fucking hate American Buddhists and their enormous level of smug self-importance and outright hypocrisy. Fuck this shit.

[–]moozilla 9 points10 points ago

the dharma is explicitly clear on intoxicants

If by "intoxicants" you mean intoxicating drinks (eg. alcohol) it is explicitly clear. Otherwise, it's a matter of debate. I assume you're referring to the fifth precept, which I will quote:

"I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness."

Some teachers argue that other drugs that cause "heedlessness" would also fall under this teaching, but personally I'm not sure that marijuana (or even many psychedelics) would fall under this category (or that Buddha would have categorized it so). I think the problem with marijuana in regards to meditation is that it actually causes too much heedful-ness (ie. over-analyzing or over-intellectualizing). I have this problem with caffeine as well.

[–]classical_hero 4 points5 points ago

Is there an explanation as to why intoxicants are banned?

[–]ivegotaface 5 points6 points ago

Intoxicants themselves aren't banned outright, really. For example, no one tells you not to drink tea because it has caffeine in it. But intoxicants for the sake of being intoxicated, that is, marijuana, take away from mindfulness in general, and cause suffering through desire.

[–]csmithers 3 points4 points ago*

So intoxicants -- even hard drugs -- being used for the elimination of suffering are therefore okay by Buddhist teaching, yes?

Or lets say that in an accomplished meditator drugs don't take away from mindfulness whatsoever nor does it add to it even. It's just a choice akin to "do I take a walk in the park or go read the paper on the porch?". The choice isn't based on being intoxicated rather it is based on different experiences. By this logic it is okay then?

[–]ivegotaface 4 points5 points ago

Suffering in buddhism and suffering in laymen's terms are two very different things. In buddhism, suffering arises from attachment to desires (major paraphrasing there). So, if you desire something, and that desire takes you away from mindfulness, you are already suffering.

In this way, intoxicants should really be avoided as much as possible. The very nature of them brings about suffering and prevents mindfulness. Sure, there are exceptions, but if you look deeply enough at use of substances, that is normally the result that comes out.

[–]Treedit 1 point2 points ago

This is the real reasoning for sure.

[–]veltrop 0 points1 point ago

Yeah that wording would be good in the FAQ as well.

[–]rubygeek 1 point2 points ago

Define "substances".

Is caffeine an intoxicant to you? Chocolate? They are both mood altering and affect judgement, even if they are more subtle than weed. At the same time, caffeine produces a very strong physical addiction - far more so than weed, and even stronger than many harder drugs.

I am curious about where you'd draw the line, and why you'd draw the line just there.

[–]ivegotaface 0 points1 point ago

The argument over what is an intoxicant/substance and what is not is irrelevant. What matters is if you develop an unhealthy relationship with a substance that causes you to desire it when you do not have it. You can certainly develop an unhealthy relationship to anything, and that is where non-attachment comes in. I drink tea every day, but I do not have an unhealthy relationship with it. I never desire tea. I simply make it a daily ritual, where it acts as a call to mindfulness, a set of familiar motions to go through where I can be in the present moment, that brings me a peace that lingers throughout the day. This ritual does not depend on the substance though. I could very well do the same with a bowl of rice, if I felt so inclined.

If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask.

[–]rubygeek 1 point2 points ago

The argument over what is an intoxicant/substance and what is not is irrelevant.

It isn't irrelevant for this discussion, when what is or isn't an intoxicant is being dragged out as a determinant for whether or not a substance is suitable for use when meditating.

What matters is if you develop an unhealthy relationship with a substance that causes you to desire it when you do not have it.

If so, tea or coffees containing caffeine are far more likely to cause that than weed is.

Caffeine causes a very strong physical dependency, whereas weed causes next to no physical dependency. Psychological dependencies can occur with anything, so that's difficult to compare, but try take the morning coffee away from an average office worker and see how they respond...

Caffeine can cause effects up to and including week-long withdrawal that looks similar to what a heroine addict experiences, including cold-sweats, high temperatures, uncontrollable shivering, massive headaches, irritability, lack of concentration and more. Yes, I've experienced it several times - in periods I use fairly high doses of caffeine for my weight lifting, and when I do I always make sure to drop it cold now and again to reduce my tolerance. It's not pleasant (though can be controlled reasonably well with well timed painkillers for a week; with the caveat that if the shivers set in before you take a pain killer - well, you might find it hard to get the pain killer into your mouth if your withdrawal is bad enough)

You're lucky if you haven't experienced that kind of withdrawal with your tea habit - presumably the caffeine content in your preferred tea is either low enough or you drink little enough (or you've never tried to drop it for long enough).

So that raises the question of why caffeine is ok according to some here that at the same time object to weed. Is it purely down to your personal failure to observe addiction to your tea? Would you say the same about tea as about weed if you felt addiction to it? If so, is it ok for people to use weed if they don't feel an addiction for it (many don't)?

[–]ivegotaface 0 points1 point ago*

A fact that is often overlooked in discussions like these are that there is a difference between addiction and physical dependency (would you argue someone who takes opiates as prescribed by a doctor to take care of their pain, and thusly develops a physical dependency but does not crave it or seek out ways to get more, is addicted?), while the difference between psychological dependency and addiction is a very hard line to draw. Many would argue that they are one in the same, as the DSM-IV implies. Can you really argue that most chronic smokers would stop cold turkey and not desire it again? Could you argue that most chronic smokers don't overindulge, or spend a bulk of their time sober wanting to get high? I know I can do that with tea, though my personal relationship with caffeine is irrelevant. It's not a matter of if they could, we all know they are physically capable, but if they actually would. I'm going to get a lot of flak for this one, but I would venture to say most daily smokers are addicted. Not physically, but psychologically. I know many of the daily smokers in my life are. So the question then becomes, is that addiction conducive to meditation or is it not? At best, it is neutral, and doesn't affect meditation one way or another. But it is difficult to be mindful when you crave something constantly, so I dare say that it is not beneficial tomeditation. Of course, there are exceptions, but I am speaking of the general populace here. I admit that I indulge in cannabis on ocassion, albeit very infrequently. I do the same with other substances, too, but that really doesn't have a whole lot to do with this discussion.

My point is, it's all about the relationship one has with the substance. If one could honestly give it up this very moment and not desire it again, then they must have a very healthy relationship with their substance of choice, but I don't think most people can say that in honesty, do you?

[–]makwa -3 points-2 points ago

There is nothing wrong with intoxicants. The reason they are discouraged from a buddhist perspective is twofold:

  • It becomes more difficult to observe the movements of mind and to let go of these movements. Meditation while intoxicated is hard.
  • In general it becomes more likely that you will not observe any of the other precepts (killing, lying, stealing, adultery), which can result in negative consequences for you.

[–]Treedit 9 points10 points ago

In general it becomes more likely that you will not observe any of the other precepts (killing, lying, stealing, adultery), which can result in negative consequences for you.

ಠ_ಠ

[–]moozilla 1 point2 points ago

Alcohol is explicitly not recommended because it promotes "heedlessness" - ie. carelessness or lack of mindfulness. With other drugs the case is a lot less clear.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_drugs#Buddhism

[–]texture 1 point2 points ago

The word "intoxicant" is vague and subject to interpretation.

[–]bbygrlz0x 1 point2 points ago

I mean, sometimes it is just easier to transition into meditation after smoking a little weed. It just makes things less conscious, everything is a little more fluid.

[–]lovewillsetmefree 1 point2 points ago

Yes I think it's closed minded and not in keeping with the explorative nature of meditation

[–]anechoic 1 point2 points ago

consuming cannabis is meditation, not consuming cannabis is meditation, putting on your shoes is meditation, not putting on your shoes is meditation. It's all meditation. Too many rules hampers the ability to get into that space no matter how you get there.

[–]sacca7 2 points3 points ago*

Hey, r/meditation:

In Reddiquitte, it says we are not to downvote for disagreeing.

We downvote when something does not contribute to the conversation.

[–]jalanb -5 points-4 points ago

Personally - I always downvote posts which mention downvoting, like yours.

And this

[–]saxmaster 2 points3 points ago

Yeah, there are no rules not worth breaking, especially with meditation, and especially with that rule. Try it drunk sometime.

[–]DankBeard 0 points1 point ago

I don't really see how a comparison to morphine really serves any point at all.

[–]windchime159 0 points1 point ago

It depends on your goal thats all.

If your goal is development and self mastery, almost nothing is more counter productive to self mastery then relying on ANY external substance to obtain "meditative states"

If you goal is enjoyment, smoke all the weed you'd like.

[–]bobbaphetZazen -1 points0 points ago

No because it's true.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points ago

Meditation is a skill you practice, not a plant you combust.

[–]tamedLion 0 points1 point ago

There is an art to getting high too.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

I agree. And the art of getting high is a different and separate art from meditation.

[–]MrNifty 0 points1 point ago

I don't see anything close-minded or judgmental about it. You just happen to disagree with it, for probably personal reasons. Smoking weed is not the same thing as meditating.

[–]rubygeek 5 points6 points ago

Smoking weed is not the same thing as meditating.

That's not what OP is saying, nor what the FAQ question is about.

[–]MrNifty -1 points0 points ago

I think it is. The whole point is smoking weed counter-productive to meditating? Yes, it absolutely is. How can one distinguish between the natural processes unfolding within you as a natural by-product of the meditative state and the effects of the drug? If you achieve something great for yourself while doing both, can you repeat it without weed? How do you know unless you have tested both scenarios? And if you have achieved both, what benefit does being high provide if you can do it all by yourself? In my personal experience, the consumption of any unhealthy substances have a dampening effect of the results of meditation. For me this includes sugar and caffeine.

People smoking weed while meditating are more "being high" than meditating.

[–]rubygeek 2 points3 points ago

The whole point is smoking weed counter-productive to meditating? Yes, it absolutely is.

[citation needed]

How can one distinguish between the natural processes unfolding within you as a natural by-product of the meditative state and the effects of the drug?

I don't know. Do you? Have you tried both seriously?

And secondly, does it matter? Why do you assume that this is a requirement for everyone practising meditation?

If you achieve something great for yourself while doing both, can you repeat it without weed?

I don't see the relevance. Do you have the same experiences when meditating on music, vs. meditating on the breath, vs. any number of other variations? No. If you didn't, then what would be the point of the variation? It would defeat the object.

In my personal experience, the consumption of any unhealthy substances have a dampening effect of the results of meditation. For me this includes sugar and caffeine.

And as a personal experience that is fine, but it does not invalidate the experience of others. Personally I often take caffeine before mediating if I'm tired, as it helps me concentrate. I've also used nootropics (racetam's in particular) before mediating - not explicitly for the purpose of meditating "on them", but because I meditated at a time where I definitively would've had them in my system, and given the effects I feel they have (though some of these might very well be placebo), I'm inclined to experiment more with them.

Weed? Not really interested, but at the same time I don't think personal opinions on it is a valid reason to exclude the experience of those who find it useful, or interesting to experiment with.

(as a digression, when dragging out caffeine: Caffeine is far more physically addictive than weed, and have far nastier withdrawal symptoms for most people, and more side-effects for most people too; on the list of "unhealthy substances" it should probably be far higher than weed)

[–]MrNifty -1 points0 points ago

but it does not invalidate the experience of others

I never said it did. That you take it like that, and continue to take the word judgment to mean "being looked down up" shows that you take this issue emotionally - you are offended. Which you might have more insight into if you did more than just get high and kick back, and pretend it's meditating. If that's your thing, I honestly have no problem with that. It's just not the same thing as meditating, for reasons I already explained.

[–]moozilla 1 point2 points ago

It's not really much of an answer to the question though. I think what the author is attempting to imply (ie. that marijuana objectively impairs meditation) could be thought of as close-minded or judgmental though, or at the very least, debatable.

Can I smoke cannabis (not for medical reasons) and meditate?
Some think they are meditating when smoking marijuana. It's not meditating, it's just getting high.

[–]sacca7 -1 points0 points ago

It seems to be a discussion about the definition of meditation.

Is getting high on weed meditating? Yes or no.

On this reddit, the answer is no.

Please, please, please someone start a reddit for meditation on marijuana. Let me know when you do. We'll link it.

[–]rubygeek 1 point2 points ago

Is getting high on weed meditating? Yes or no.

On this reddit, the answer is no.

That's not what the OP is disagreeing with. What he is disagreeing with is the notion that meditating while high isn't possible.

[–]sacca7 -1 points0 points ago

Meditating on marijuana is a different category. It needs its own subreddit.

If you knew--really knew by having years of meditation practice without weed--the difference between serious meditation practice and meditation on weed, you'd not be discussing this.

[–]rubygeek 5 points6 points ago

It needs its own subreddit.

Why?

If you knew--really knew by having years of meditation practice without weed--the difference between serious meditation practice and meditation on weed, you'd not be discussing this.

Yes, I would, because this is /r/meditation not /r/advancedmeditationpracticeforpurists.

If you want it to be some exclusive club for people holding a specific view on specific forms of meditation, then really it's that narrow view that needs its own sub-reddit.

I've never used weed in my life, nor do I have a particular desire to, but if someone here do want to discuss meditation on weed and its effects, I welcome seeing those posts too, because I see absolutely no justification for being exclusionary or judgemental about it.

And for the record, I agree with OP that the wording in the FAQ is extremely judgemental.

[–]sacca7 -3 points-2 points ago

It's not judgmental. That is your opinion.

It is a definition of meditation.

If you go to r/trees they say they are accepting and non-judgmental. If that was deeply true, why the difficulty?

[–]rubygeek 6 points7 points ago

It's not judgmental. That is your opinion.

It is clearly judgemental - it explicitly makes a claim that excludes the experiences of a lot of people as invalid. It's hard to be more explicitly judgemental. Whether or not being judgemental in that is bad, is open for discussion, and yes, there it is my opinion that is bad and unwarranted.

If you go to r/trees they say they are accepting and non-judgmental. If that was deeply true, why the difficulty?

I'm sure they wouldn't object to discussions about meditation on weed, but I'm not interested in discussing weed.

I am interested in discussing meditation. If the two interects, I'm interested in reading about it and discussing it, but I have no interest in the noise of wider "weed-culture" cluttering up my reddit experience to catch the odd post about it, especially I don't use weed.

[–]sacca7 -1 points0 points ago

r/meditation used to have these debates about meditating on weed or not. It got really old. When these FAQ were posted, a lot were grateful that the discussions about meditating on weed were over.

Sorry if the definition of meditation is not agreeable to you and others. I'm sorry if it sounds exclusionary. The subreddits are allowed to have their own rules.

I post on r/SuicideWatch. They have rules. If people don't follow them their posts get deleted. I'm not against marijuana, I, as a mod have not deleted this post. However, meditating on weed is getting high, it is not getting free, which is what meditation is about.

[–]chaosmage 3 points4 points ago

Maybe the FAQ should say that.

Not saying I agree drugs shouldn't be discussed here, but if that's what you're trying to achieve, it'd be easier if you had a place to send those who disagree.

One reddit you could refer people to is /r/psychonaut/ .

[–]rubygeek 4 points5 points ago

r/meditation used to have these debates about meditating on weed or not. It got really old.

When a subject is controversial enough that it "gets really old" it is a clear sign that there is not agreement about it, as such, to me, that makes it far less warranted to have that content in the FAQ.

a lot were grateful that the discussions about meditating on weed were over.

When were they over? A few searches shows me regular, though not very frequent, posts on meditating and weed. All with a reasonable number of upvotes and comments.

I post on r/SuicideWatch. They have rules. If people don't follow them their posts get deleted.

And you don't see the ridiculousness of making this comparison? A discussion of meditating on weed is not going to get anyone killed. The wrong type of posts on /r/SuicideWatch very well might end up in someone killing themselves. That you're even able to make that comparison is outright shocking to me.

However, meditating on weed is getting high, it is not getting free, which is what meditation is about.

... in your opinion. Which clearly is not anything remotely universal on here, judging from the discussion this is generating.

[–]MrNifty -1 points0 points ago

Meditating while high is not the same thing as meditating though. The key point is, is getting high required to meditate? It's not and no one here really disagrees on this. So why the inclination towards it? Because it's easier, basically. That's it. Meditation is (supposed to be) about building an inner strength/power directed towards a specific purpose. Mindfulness, self-control, peace, etc. Building your meditation practice around the use of psychoactive substances doesn't build independence, it builds reliance.

Marijuana would not affect us if we didn't already have receptors in our brain for similar substances. Substances that are organically derived, in the sense they are produced internally. We didn't evolve around the use of psychoactive substances, they just happen to mimic processes in our brains that are possible through internal means. People taking drugs are basically hacking their brain.

Taking the stance that meditation while high is a no-no is not a purist approach. Your approach (below) is akin to extremists calling centrists the ones on the fringe. I've changed my mind a bit, and agree with you that that point in the FAQ is judgmental. Except I think it is the exercise of good judgement. A literal interpretation of the word judgment instead of the emotionally charged one that equates to being looked down upon.

TL;DR As I understand it, and would like it to be, this subreddit is intended to discuss the serious pursuit of meditation. Not merely meditation as a recreational activity. Smoking weed during it amounts to taking a short-cut.

[–]rubygeek 2 points3 points ago

Meditating while high is not the same thing as meditating though.

You are right: the former is a subset of the latter. Just as Vipassana meditation is not the same as meditating - it is a subset of the latter.

The key point is, is getting high required to meditate? It's not and no one here really disagrees on this. So why the inclination towards it? Because it's easier, basically. That's it. Meditation is (supposed to be) about building an inner strength/power directed towards a specific purpose. Mindfulness, self-control, peace, etc. Building your meditation practice around the use of psychoactive substances doesn't build independence, it builds reliance.

This is a nonsense argument.

Meditating in silence is "easier" than meditating with lots of noise. Meditating on music is "easier" to a lot of people than meditating on the breath. Meditating with your eyes closed is "easier" to a lot of people than meditating with your eyes open.

Yet all are meditation.

You are also projecting your own idea of what meditation is or should be onto everyone else. Plenty of people practice meditation for much more mundane purposes, such as "just" for stress reduction, for example. E.g. mindfulness meditation is explicitly taught as a stress reduction method. What makes your idea of what mediation should be more valid?

The rest of your message to me follows in the same vein of making a lot of assumption of what is "worthy" of being considered serious meditation that is based purely on personal belief.

I find it kinda tragicomical to see the amount of orthodoxy and judgement in the comments to this post, given the nature of the subject matter.

[–]MrNifty 0 points1 point ago

Meditating in silence is "easier" than meditating with lots of noise. Meditating on music is "easier" to a lot of people than meditating on > the breath. Meditating with your eyes closed is "easier" to a lot of people than meditating with your eyes open.

It's not nonsense because taking all those things you listed above into account, you still put the onus and emphasis on the individuals ability. Add weed into the mix and you have this "helper" agent that gets you to that state, or partway there, without the work on your part.

You are also projecting your own idea of what meditation is or should be onto everyone else.

No, that's what you guys are doing. You are offended by the fact that the subreddit discourages it, which flies in the face of your own cherished opinion.

[–]rubygeek 3 points4 points ago

It's not nonsense because taking all those things you listed above into account, you still put the onus and emphasis on the individuals ability. Add weed into the mix and you have this "helper" agent that gets you to that state, or partway there, without the work on your part.

The only difference is that weed is a physical agent, where, for example, music is not. It is still a helper, that is part of how you get to the particular state it helps induce without the work on your part.

Why does it matter that the helper is physical?

No, that's what you guys are doing. You are offended by the fact that the subreddit discourages it, which flies in the face of your own cherished opinion.

One view limits and judges, the other is inclusive. I don't use weed. I've never used it. The reason I feel strongly about this discussion is that while I have no desire to meditate on weed, or use weed at all, I don't see any valid justification for being exlusionary towards it.

I don't know whether to be sad or amused that you manage to justify the sentence above to yourself.

"My cherished opinion" is that I don't have a monopoly on defining meditation, but neither have you or anyone else here. As such I find the judgemental attitude demonstrated in this discussion at best quite sad.

[–]MrNifty -3 points-2 points ago

To be fair, it's not much of a question either. Hey guys, I don't like this, does anyone else agree with me? OP gave no elaboration or explanation for why he thought that, or why he believes smoking weed is conducive or productive towards meditation. The inferences you are making are just that. I just responded to what he asked.

[–]anechoic 0 points1 point ago

http://headstuffbooks.com/titles/cannabis_and_meditation

[–]tamedLion 0 points1 point ago

I just downloaded and read the tester. Thinking about buying. How was the rest?

[–]anechoic 0 points1 point ago

I've just read the teaser as well but it looks very good :)

also, I just purchased this book: http://www.amazon.com/Naked-Magick-Marijuana-Magician-ebook/dp/B005KN83PG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324945112&sr=8-1

[–]tamedLion 0 points1 point ago

looks really interesting. I once asked the spirit of marijuana for help and it answered my plea. <3

[–]lovewillsetmefree -3 points-2 points ago

http://imgur.com/ivsOW

[–]sacca7 -2 points-1 points ago

The meditation that this reddit is discussing is meditation that happens by your own, natural, inborn power.

If you want a subreddit on meditating after taking drugs, you are free to start one.

Some might call getting high on marijuana, LSD, DMT, MDMA, alcohol, etc. and then meditating, meditating. However, it's clearly not the same thing.

[–]chaosmage 2 points3 points ago

How do you know that, and why should anyone agree?

[–]sacca7 -2 points-1 points ago

I know that because I've abused marijuana in the past, and I've done a lot of meditation retreats, all without marijuana.

edit: If you don't agree, why don't you start a reddit for meditation on marijuana?

[–]theliberatedamalgam 7 points8 points ago

As part of a ritual, I have been offered a shot of whisky and meat at a Tibetan Buddhist temple. The nun told me that these two things are the only required elements of the ceremony. We were meditating, monks and nuns come around with tablespoons of whisky, we open our mouths, spoon goes in, whisky goes on tongue, sharp burn, the swallow, the warmth... it's all a meditation, the lesson being what dopafiend so aptly said: "Student: Teacher, may we smoke while we meditate? Teacher: stern No! Don't be ridiculous, meditation must be your only intention pause Student: May we meditate while we are smoking? Teacher: smiles Of course! you can meditate whenever you like, no matter what else you choose to do in life"

[–]sacca7 -1 points0 points ago

Why does no one start another reddit for this sort of meditation?

[–]rubygeek 3 points4 points ago

Why should they have to?

[–]sacca7 -1 points0 points ago

Because there is a difference between meditating after taking drugs,

and meditating by your own power.

[–]rubygeek 4 points5 points ago

That does not address the question.

There are differences between many forms of meditation too. Should all that meditate in ways you don't like go form their own subreddits too?

[–]sacca7 -2 points-1 points ago

From the FAQ, I think we are very tolerant of various forms of meditation. Many of these do have their subreddits:

MBSR. Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction. One of the best, non-denominational meditation practices out there.

Buddhist meditation. At the risk of grossly simplifying things, there are three main types of Buddhist meditation.

-Vipassana meditation means insight medtiation or seeing clearly meditation, and included loving-kindness, or metta, meditations. It is in the Theravada Buddhist tradition, and Insight Meditation Society is one primary leader of vipassana meditations in the US. Some well known Vipassana teachers include S.N. Goenka, Jack Kornfield, and Sharon Salzberg.

-Zen meditation emphasizes meditation to open to the innate wisdom that we all already have. It is in the Mahayanna Buddhist tradition, and there are two main forms in the US, Rinzai Zen-- where they may use koans--and Soto Zen. A well know Zen teacher is Thich Nhat Hanh.

-Tibetan meditation employs many different techniques--including mantras, visualizations, and/or hand gestures--depending on the particular branch. Perhaps the most well known Tibetan who promotes meditation is His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Yogic meditation can include pranayama (breathing exercises), sitting meditation, as well as yoga-asana or movement to settle the mind.

Osho Meditation includes any form listed here as well as active meditations which may be helpful for restlessness as well as difficult emotions. Osho was an Indian mystic who lived from 1931-1990.

Taoist meditation deals with the circulation of energy inside.

Tai Chi Chuan and Qigong are moving meditations that originated in China.

Transcendental Meditation (TM) makes use of mantra practice twice a day for 15 minutes at a time. One can pay for a course, or create your own mantra and practice as they suggest. No one there levitates, contrary to their claims.

Christian Centering Prayer is a method for bringing the practitioner in a closer relationship with God's presence. It is not meant to replace other forms of prayer, but to be used in addition to it.

Quaker meditation is a Christian practice of sitting silently and listening for that of God so that one may be best able to live a fulfilling life.

[–]rubygeek 4 points5 points ago

Again you sidestep my question without answering it.

Yes, this reddit is very tolerant of many forms of meditation.

So why is it that you recommend that people that want to discuss meditation on weed (or other substances) go elsewhere, while you seem to agree with the faq that it's ok for all these other specific forms of meditation to be covered here?

I repeat my (unanswered) question:

Should all that meditate in ways you don't like go form their own subreddits too?

If not, why not?

[–]rubygeek 2 points3 points ago

So what you're saying is that because meditating when sober feels different to you than meditating when not sober, only one of them can rightfully be called meditation.

Let's put aside the fact that you're using a single data point and from that assumes that it holds for everyone else too.

But who says meditation is defined by the effects it has on you?

[–]the_real_kino 0 points1 point ago

I used to smoke a lot of weed for a long time, Ive quit now and I know the benefits have been really profoundly positive, but i dont try and change my friends who smoke and drink

but i do know in my self that these things just create a dependence, im proud to be straight-edge, i do a lot of things that my friends wouldnt bother or even consider, like going for runs on my own, meditating, reading a lot, and when im with my friends im one of the most energetic fun to be around people, and im sober physically, but yeah, i get high, just not off any drugs.

i meditate to get high, i go for runs to get high, i do these things because its good for me, but smoking weed or drinking would not be good for me, and in fact, they dont really get me high... not any more, I think ive smoked too much weed for a life time and its just boring now, i become boring, lethargic, content to just sit on my arse, yet i also get anxious etc. please dont argue with me about the effects of the drug - these are my subjective experience.

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