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Started using Cherrypy + Mako for web development. Any good guides on good design? (self.Python)

submitted ago by vaum

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[–]zzzeeksqlalchemy mako 6 points7 points ago

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a few articles, my general approach for using formencode with Pylons style form decorators: http://techspot.zzzeek.org/?p=28

a pattern I sometimes use for rendering the same HTML widget both as inline HTML and also as an ajax-generated frame: http://techspot.zzzeek.org/?p=29

theres some new stuff that integrates closely with Mako in Beaker: http://beaker.groovie.org , but it seems Ben hasn't documented yet. If you pop on IRC and ask Ben about "mike's new component-caching feature", he'll probably know what you're talking about since I have him using it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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+1 for the only seemingly on topic reply in a sea of "try my favorite framework cuz it's the best..."

[–]mordaunt0 5 points6 points ago

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look at django and replicate functionality? :)

i tried using a micro-framework before, but I realized it was a pointless exercise, when I started re-inventing the django wheel.

take a look at interesting functionality in larger frameworks and import what you need

[–]chub79 7 points8 points ago

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The other side for me, after months of fighting with large(ish) frameworks such as Django so that they bend to my requirements, I've given up and decided to plug focused tools together so that they don't come into my way.

Depends on what you need really.

[–]vaum[S] 2 points3 points ago

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My way of thinking. :)

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points ago

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Keep in mind that the more you get to know a framework (however frustrating the process of "getting to know a large framework" is), the more efficient you become.

I'm just saying, because I regret having wasted a lot of time instead of starting with Django from the very beginning.

[–]zzzeeksqlalchemy mako 2 points3 points ago* 

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django should be looking at pylons/mako/beaker.

see http://compoundthinking.com/blog/index.php/2008/09/17/djangocon-and-learning-from-zope-2/ for further details.

[–]vaum[S] 1 point2 points ago

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Maybe I will reconsider Pylons.

[–]afd8856 1 point2 points ago

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Pylons is a lot closer to the Cherrypy + Mako combination, what don't you mention that?

[–]luckystarrwhile "Goodbye!": os.fork() 1 point2 points ago

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Done that. Worked great so far. I now have a system which uses Werkzeug, Jinja and SQLAlchemy which looks a bit like Djangos Admin, but has far greater querying power thanks to SQLAlchemy. The design does not look as nice, but thats a CSS thing. ;)

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Seconded. Programmers shouldn't spend time on rewriting freely available code.

[–]zepolen 10 points11 points ago

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Thirded. So why did the django devs reimplement everything rather than use freely available code again?

[–]vaum[S] 2 points3 points ago

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I thought the exact same thing. Then again, if Django were perfect, there wouldn't be alternatives :P

[–]kordless 2 points3 points ago

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Economics 101 says otherwise.

[–]vaum[S] -1 points0 points ago

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You are right, too. I guess it goes both ways.

[–]reveller -1 points0 points ago* 

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I guess it's the same reason there are 20 car companies building cars. Everyone thinks they can build a better car, some are faster, some are simpler, some are slower but easier to attain, some are built for certain situations. I like and use django, but think people should look over the documentation of their various options, try writing a simple app and go for a "test drive"

I realize that there are fast and easy to attain pieces of software, but they might not feel right to the driver

[–]compnski 2 points3 points ago

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no native sql-alchemy support yet:/, and many things require their model layey.

[–]hynek 2 points3 points ago

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I second that, the ORM layer of Django is terrible (especially when compared to SQLAlchemy). I'm going for Pylons ATM, however the Development seems a bit stalled. :(

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points ago

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I really want to like Pylons, but when you compare the documentation for Pylons vs. Django, there's a HUGE difference.

[–]hynek 1 point2 points ago

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Well the point is that Django has a much bigger community. I often look jealously over to them.

OTOH: After having used SQLAlchemy, I just feel physical pain when using Django's ORM. However: Pylons has a decent book free in the web and there's great documentation for SQLAlchemy for example. Pylons combines many technologies, so the docs aren't necessarily all in one place.

JFTR: I tried to rebuild small parts of my webapp in Django and the SQL generated by Django's ORM was much slower than SQLAlchemy's (10x slower in one special case). And yes, I asked on #django and was just told, that SQLAlchemy is simply better at this.

Give me Django with SQLAlchemy and I'm in heaven.

Sad to see Pylons slowly die though, I really loved its philosophy.

[–]ergo14 0 points1 point ago

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I didn't notice that pylons slowly dies, there are tickets closed, and you can easly use trunk version of it. Also keep in mind that separate projects that pylons reuses DO move forward (and those are often developed by pylons guys - like beaker), so its very unfair to say its dying.

[–]hynek 0 points1 point ago

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It might be unfair yet the development and community of Django is arguably "better".

Symptomatic was when I tried to mail James Gardner because some pypi download link was broken. Guess what, the mail addressed to his official company address failed. :(

Core Pylons components are developed by 3-4 people, compare that to Django... envy

Don't get me wrong, I really like Pylons but I don't see much progress in the last months.

[–]ergo14 0 points1 point ago* 

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i talked with you on #pylons not long ago, about repoze.

If you want to see "movement" check source code commits, on bitbucket - 1.0 is about done.

Btw. actually what part of pylons is not working/you need bug fixed?

Its stable and mature software. To me it doesnt matter if pylons would be developed by 50 ppl team. Whats the difference if what is provided now is all we need ? Not sure what to envy ? that it uses orm that doesnt allow multiple db connections ? good luck i could not do a single project with django - it just doesnt meet my requirements.

I'd be REALLY interested in what progress you are expecting from this package, 1.0 is about cleanup of code.

There are other libs that do a very good job out there like werkzeug that are 0.5 version etc. and still very usable. I think you are better of with django if it suits your needs better than pylons. Judge the software based on what it does for you, not version number. Oh, and for problems with pylons if there are any (easy_install pylons works fine ? ), contact Ben Bangert, im not sure if J Gardner still works on pylons ?

[–]hynek 0 points1 point ago

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Yeah, I realized after pressing "save". :)

As said, Pylons suits my needs (at least much better than Django which I tried and disposed). That's also the reason why I'm using it. I said it already and I'll repeat it again and again: The ORM of Django is just terrible.

However: It does matter, how many people develop. Imagine Michael Bayer losing interest in SQLA/Mako or getting hit by a bus...we'd have hell of a problem. It's not (only) about speed of development, it's more about the future-proofness.

The broken pypi was formencode IIRC, that's a project of James.

Also my envy is more about the community itself: The #django is lot fuller and active at any time of the day. People on #pylons are always helpful, no question but there's not always someone around. Look from when the latest snippet is...etc pp.

Again: I don't mean to talk pylons bad. I'm running several projects with it. I'm just a bit afraid about the future.

[–]vaum[S] 0 points1 point ago

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I thought about it, but the idea of 'kitchen sink' doesn't sit well with me. I like having a minimal base, and working off from there.

But I see your point. If I were doing anything warranting stability and fast development, I would go Django, but this is just for personal learning.

[–]mordaunt0 -1 points0 points ago* 

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yep go for it :)

I tried cherry.py and web.py for a while until i was convinced the kitchen sink was better mostly because I did need it. I was able to wrap my head around django better afterwards. The first time I read the django docs (pre-micro) I was just confused by the ludicrous amount of stuff in it and micro framework was a welcome relief.

you should try twisted as well :D

also fyi: django components can be used separately, the orm, the template engine etc.

I use the orm in a couple of twisted and libpcap apps that populate the dbs that django displays, it's been easy enough

[–]vaum[S] 2 points3 points ago

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I actually went for web.py + Mako first, but the way cherrypy handles urls made more sense to me.

[–]mordaunt0 1 point2 points ago

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heh same :)

[–]vaum[S] 1 point2 points ago

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I actually started with web.py + Mako, but the way cherrypy handles urls clicked with me much faster.

[–]osuchw 0 points1 point ago

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My favorite combination is Werkzeug+Mako+SQLAlchemy

[–]tonecapone 0 points1 point ago

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I started with the same setup and found that in my case, I still needed a lot of other pieces and was wasting too much time trying to glue them all together. So I switched to Pylons and lived happily ever after.

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