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[–]Skoll552 1062 points1063 points ago

And you did all that while talking in his religious language and not resorting to ad hominem attacks. Impressive....most impressive.

[–]dogboybastard[S] 856 points857 points ago

I turn 55 this year. I have never believed and since an early age have resisted indoctrination. I have a life of debate, discussion and study. I know that if you oppose someone it’ll only end up in blows. I was irritated at the anti-science fervor that seems to be sweeping this country. So if by any measure I can assuage that then I’m all for it. I don’t really care what a person believes, I care what they do.

[–]ArletApple 540 points541 points ago

a truly intelligent man can argue a point without aligning himself to it.

you deserve more recognition then i can give you good sir.

[–]kadmylos 347 points348 points ago

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" -Aristotle

[–]feureau 247 points248 points ago

"I'm Abraham Lincoln and I approve of this message." - Woodrow Wilson.

[–]Ba-na-na-na 26 points27 points ago

I feel like this is a novelty account in the making.

[–]InABritishAccent 15 points16 points ago

This is not in the making, it was made long ago and it has stood the test of time upon these interwebs. Of course, there used to be a picture of someone else entirely in the background in its original meme form.

[–]Halvors 7 points8 points ago

Read that in a British accent voice

[–]camelhorder 36 points37 points ago

Being British, I read all comments and posts in a British accent. For some reason though I read that in the voice of Hugh Laurie...

[–]Glitchdx 1 point2 points ago

The one I remember had a picture of Gandalf with a quote of something Yoda said, attributed to Dumbledore. Never before or since have I felt such rage.

[–]allineedis42 5 points6 points ago

[–]greggoeggo 7 points8 points ago

What's Beethoven's favorite fruit? Ba-na-na-naaaaaaa (to the tune of the Fifth).

[–]mtheoryx 7 points8 points ago

  • Michael Scott

[–]Kazang 129 points130 points ago

This a concept that a lot of atheists don't get and it's a shame.

You will never convince a person who truly believes in God with their heart that God does not exist by simply arguing that God does not exist. You first have to use a premise that assumes he does exist and work from that.

[–]Carnival_Knowledge 93 points94 points ago

The OP wisely stuck to the topic of evolution and wasn't derailed by an argument about the existence of god. In order to pull this country out of its anti-science rut we will need to help theist understand they can believe in god and in science. This was a beautifully articulate step forward.

[–]dongsy-normus 2 points3 points ago

No they didn't argue about the existence of God, OP's own stance accepted that there was a God though, one who was responsible for everything we know.

Whether or not he was planting the seed of doubt in some insidious way, (it doesn't seem he did anything other than make this guy love God more) he did accept there was a God.

[–]Drakonisch 41 points42 points ago

He did not accept that there was/is a god. He simply used the other person's beliefs and spoke in a way with which the other person could relate. You don't have to attack all topics all at once. Baby steps my friend. First you get them to accept science and real knowledge. Once the seed of critical thought is in place, the rest will follow.

Even if the rest never comes, at least you have stopped one person from being a denier of knowledge. How many more children will grow up in the world and actually understand science? How many more people will never be swayed by a young earther street preacher? All because one guy stood up and convinced this man that god created the universe and that means evolution as well.

TL;DR - Pick your battles. This was about evolution, not god.

[–]Deetoria 5 points6 points ago

" Once the seed of critical thought is in place, the rest will follow. "

Well said, Drakonisch.

I truly think that is the way to non-belief. Once a person starts critically thinking and questioning things, it is a relatively slippery slope to agnosticism or atheism.

What also helps is the removal of the constant indoctrination ( ie. church every Sunday ) helps the critical thinking along.

I have watched a friend of my fiancee's go from hard core bible thumping baptist, to " I believe god, just not religion, " all because he stopped going to church on a regular basis and began to think critically. ( My fiancee doesn't hurt the transition, he speaks in the same way to op does. )

[–]dlite922 30 points31 points ago

What's difficult for some atheist like me is actually finding logic in that premise. The urge to me is too strong and whatever I try to say seems to be faux logic which leaves me very vulnerable to religion logic that the person will use against me. You have to be really skilled like the OP to pull this off.

I feel like I'm lying when I say stuff like "Well God created Chemistry, Physics, Electronics,". It's a fine line to control yourself like this.

[–]lynn 7 points8 points ago

Don't think of it as accepting the premise that god exists. Think of it as speaking their language to make a different point.

[–]Kazang 4 points5 points ago

You don't have to accept the argument, that is the thing.

You are saying "if God exists and he is the creator of everything then that includes science". Which is true and you are not lying to them or yourself. You are simply entertaining a premise for the sake of argument. That of it as playing devils advocate, or in this case, god's advocate.

[–]lazy8s 2 points3 points ago

Can you prove God does not exist? Where is your repeatable experiment to prove it?

That is why: 1) Arguing he does not exist is stupid. You can't prove he doesn't, they can't prove he does. Sure, logically he probably doesn't, but you can't argue science and then use an unscientific argument.

2) Making an argument like the OP's isn't lying. You may not believe God created it, fine. You can still argue based on a premise that you cannot prove either way. Example: "I am holding a card behind my back that is black or white. If it was black...blah blah blah."

Just to reiterate, most atheists lose theists because they try to argue something that may or may not be true: does God exist. If you can't prove God doesn't exist, quit arguing it with people who do believe. They can believe whatever they want. Stick to the facts, and theists will have to accept science.

[–]RainsLikeSnow 2 points3 points ago

I too have that feeling, its just that religion seems so ridiculous from an atheist standpoint. Like believing that when you die you go to heaven doesn't make sense to me because most people know that your brain is what tells your body to function so if your heart stops pumping blood to the brain and the brain dies off, you are basically just a cold piece of meat.

[–]angrypenguin182 138 points139 points ago

I was was out of fucks to give, you have replenished me with a pocket full of fucks in how to deal with such situations. Thank. You

[–]PumpAndDump 62 points63 points ago

Pocketfull of Fucks. I like it.

[–]eelkyalb 41 points42 points ago

Rally 'round the family...

[–]NixFix 16 points17 points ago

With a pocket full of fucks.

[–]ASlags 1 point2 points ago

With a pocket full of shells.

[–]angrypenguin182 9 points10 points ago

Id like to also thank Chris Rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaCr3-cjfTQ

[–]chewybear0 27 points28 points ago

Debate from within their framework, with their own premises works much better than straight contradiction. Way to go, I'll have to remember this argument! I don't care if they believe, as long as they don't stand in the way of science, or secular advancements. Now how do we get them to bridge their beliefs and civil liberties... Baby steps, I guess.

[–]inferno719 17 points18 points ago

Thank you. It's not religion that bothers me, it's the stupid shit religion makes them do. If you can get religious people to stop trying to push creationism into the school (or even just stop rejecting evolution) then you're making them more tolerable during America's (unfortunately lengthy) path to secularism.

[–]Martyrsaint777 17 points18 points ago

The logic in your words are astounding. Hats off to you sir.

[–]Kijad 11 points12 points ago

You are an incredible person. I honestly expected the conversation to eventually devolve completely, then reached the end and was just really, really happy with the whole thing.

I've always thought that if we were to get anywhere with genuine peace in the world, we should have tolerance and patience for others' beliefs and have constructive dialogue, which was precisely what you did.

I applaud you.

[–]Stjepo 22 points23 points ago

As a Catholic, I thank you for what you said to that man, and the efficacy with which you did so.

[–]FreshPrinceOfAiur 0 points1 point ago

Yet you associate yourself with that Church, so I assume you respect the process adopted rather than his position?

[–]Nisas 19 points20 points ago

It's interesting how the most effective means of argument is an inherently dishonest one. It's almost like a con job. I don't say this to be insulting, but to be honest.

By representing yourself as a peer of the opponent you open them to ideas you put forward.

[–]PinheadX 14 points15 points ago

the religious often do the same in different ways...

[–]jordanTRC 5 points6 points ago

"No really, I was a skeptic just like yourself"

[–]mighteee 4 points5 points ago

It's not necessarily a con as it is showing an interest in something.

[–]technicallynottrue 10 points11 points ago

we should use science to clone you and have one on every street corner bravo sir.

[–]logifal 14 points15 points ago

It's weird how /r/atheism agrees with you yet acts a completely different way.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points ago

Not all of us post?/vote on everything? Well it's true for me.

Or it's the people act differently in real life thing.

[–]Stinkfist94 4 points5 points ago

You're kinda a badass.

You're like a Splinter Cell.

[–]SalemWolf 0 points1 point ago

Upvote for epic truth. Also...you now have 666 points because of me. Relevant?

[–]AttilaTetris 193 points194 points ago

I realize I'm treading in the wrong territory as a religious man, but your words on the subject are exactly my view on God and the creation of the universe.

[–]Ouro130Ros 78 points79 points ago

I am right on the other side of that line. I just got to the point where it became a simple matter of definitions. What really is the difference between God and whatever force brought this universe into being.

When you think about it all it really is truly beautiful. The sheer grandeur and complexity of it all, and the fact that something defied unthinkable odds to give us the privilege of experiencing the most minute fraction of it all.

You don't need a church to be grateful for all of this, and you don't need a hope for something better to make the most of your life. Honestly, even if my consciousness ended up spending an eternity in Heaven, I would be a bit disappointed. With all the magesty of everything, Skycake would be a lit of a let-down, and why waste a good life waiting for the end of it.

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]The_Real_Cats_Eye 13 points14 points ago

Well, is that it then? God's sole purpose was to make something go pop, and he's been meaningless since? That's not that impressive.

I'm not a religious guy, but if that's ALL He did, I'd say that's pretty fucking impressive.

[–]DrNeroCF 4 points5 points ago

That sort of drastically undermines the entire relation of 'creator' and 'creation', doesn't it?

[–]unsalvageable 9 points10 points ago

When I witness someone on stage perform a miracle, my mind is awash in a sea of fascinated delight. And curiosity. I really want to know HOW he did it; and I then hold in my heart and mind, TWO feelings: One, an astonished amazement and respect for the trick, and Two, the certainty that it was done with natural methods.

My certainty and logic regarding the base tools of the "miracle", are very easy to understand; they're an appreciation for the immutable laws of physics. My joy at beholding the magic, can also be reduced (by hyper-critical means) to the complex interplay of endorphins and inhibitors in my brain's synapses. . .

For sheer difficulty, there is no trick with wires and mirrors alone, that can match the natural origin, of this place we call Home. Our position here, in this perfect time in this most amazing universe, against the most "unthinkable odds" rightfully raises "respect" to a more proper "worship." And as if THAT were not enough, we are then gifted with this beautiful consciousness, that allows us to even understand, how very fucking lucky we really are.

I witness this miracle called "living", and I sense that there is a natural explanation behind the stage. I search for this explanation blindly, like a pagan islander trying to grab magnetism, and I feel hopelessly dumb and ill-equipped. I know, or think I know, that my joy and respect and love, are somehow emergent properties of this "force", and because these things feel good, I easily assume that the force itself is good.

More than that, I cannot know. God is that undefinable force, my search to explain that God, is science, and this staggering display of mad, breathtaking beauty - is my church. Why would I ever condescend to show interest in the parlor games of burning bushes or Roswell aliens, when all of my heart and soul is struck speechless by the mesmerizing perfection and brilliant mechanical magic, of a simple blade of grass?

[–]frank2791 2 points3 points ago

That is fucking poetry right there. Are you by any chance a writer?

[–]unsalvageable 5 points6 points ago

No sir, a carpenter. And a Deist. What the street preacher was pretending to endorse, as a way of coercing some logic into the argument, is in fact, my personal philosophy.

Some atheists object to this view, as if I were somehow "halfway to truth" and coyly clinging to the unlocked but still comfortable chains of that old familiar religion, unwilling to brave the vast emptiness of unadulterated humanism. . .

But like the street preacher might find, if he continues his quest, humanism itself, is laughingly egocentric --- wouldn't you say ?

I don't believe that the universe is vast and empty. I don't believe our home is a pitiable blue rock spinning for nothing forever in a red-shifted nightmare.

And I don't believe this by choice, and pre-destined bias. I believe it by an honest observance of myself and my world. Our planet swarms with uncountable life : every nook and cranny, every teaspoon of soil - even the invisible air, the hot springs and ice sheets -- wondrous living things abound. You learn this your first weekend in science.

How then, is it any way logical, to just assume, that WE are the solitary center of all life, the sine qua non of the universal program ? I can't take that. It's illogical. The universe is literally crawling with life. Our little biosphere is the local analogy for a cosmos of complexity that staggers the imagination, and screams to be discovered.

And we ARE explorers; it's in our DNA. A DNA that may be shared with other conscious cousins that we have yet to meet. Accepting this proposition, reveals not a Designer, but a self-design, a choice, a purpose : to explore and exalt and discover and expand and enlighten and protect this most natural and magical gift. Owning a Destiny in the darkness of entropy is an unavoidable sentence of death, to be sure. But we've got time on our side. We've managed to escape the tyranny of religion, and an eternity spent at the feet of a godly enigma; let's invest our powerful passions instead, in the glorious worship of the here and the now and the "what might be" beyond that next galactic cloud

[–]cedargrove 26 points27 points ago

I'm always confused as to how a static creation is grander than evolution. Even humans can build a car from scratch, and it will stay a car. But to design a system which takes the most basic elements of existence, and allows them to create themselves merely by way of the initial properties and parameters of the system... is amazing.

And if God is the creator, which would he value more, someone who read a book people wrote, or a scientist who spent their life studying a small corner of His artwork? A scientist stands in awe of creation and existence. They ponder over the smallest details in complete wonder and seek to understand the tools and form of the universe.

Now I don't believe in the Christian god but I don't see why they would paint scientists, the people who ingratiate themselves in the supposed work of their lord, as heathens.

[–]NixFix 4 points5 points ago

Amen my friend. Thank you. I often feel alone in this subreddit because I cannot deny my visceral connection with my universe. I cannot for one second claim to have even the slightest grasp of its true workings. I can only explore and question and rejoice at the opportunity to do so. Our consciousness is precious.

[–]cedargrove 5 points6 points ago

Even stuff like this amazes me. The conservation of forces, specifically angular momentum here, is quite astounding in its consistency. I mean, it has to be for everything to act as it does now, but still. Simple and beautiful in its own right.

[–]Drowzee64 52 points53 points ago

Usually we don't bite as long as you don't pet us too hard.

[–]nermid 27 points28 points ago

All are welcome in this house, friend.

Just don't get dirt on the rug or some of us will flip the hell out.

[–]LukaCola 4 points5 points ago

I don't think any of us have a problem with the idea of religion, quite the opposite at least in my case. Having faith in something is just fine, more power to ya, the important thing is you have taken into consideration other views and understand the opposing arguments and are following an ideal you came up with through educated thought rather than blindly following the first thing you were told. I'd rather see your type rather than another hot-headed atheist who fights with arguments he's heard rather than come up with...

[–]chernobyl169 124 points125 points ago

Wow, man. You deserve a big, expensive medal and matching trophy. If you look up "doing it right" in the encyclopedia, it has a link to this post.

[–]neutralino 78 points79 points ago

That is a distinctly unsatisfying link.

[–]aFlyingGuru 5 points6 points ago

Meh, it was originally edited but apparently it's back to normal already.

[–]orismology 17 points18 points ago

here is a link to the old wikipedia version, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doing_It_Right works too.

[–]technicallynottrue 11 points12 points ago

what you did there. I saw it.

[–]feureau 39 points40 points ago

I'm a wikipedian and I don't approve of this sort of vandalism. So if you have to lolz about in this method, please have the courtesy of reverting it back. it'd still be in the revision history, so you can have your lolz, but you're not being an asshole for doing this.

[–]technicallynottrue 15 points16 points ago

Good Guy feureau, is passionate about something.

Isn't a dick about it.

[–]nuxenolith 1 point2 points ago

Fuckin' Tyrone 98

[–]Teuthex 185 points186 points ago

Fucking A, man.

[–]dheisman 90 points91 points ago

Fucking, Amen.

[–]ivorjawa 40 points41 points ago

[–]purplemanjoe 5 points6 points ago

fuck

[–]benYosef 38 points39 points ago

Fucking a man.

[–]EMT_guy 16 points17 points ago

we don't need to know that.

[–]Teuthex 6 points7 points ago

...What? It's an expression. A fairly meaningless one, to my knowledge.

[–]paremiamoutza 26 points27 points ago

The joke becomes more obvious if you remove the comma

[–]Teuthex 20 points21 points ago

What the hell is the point of communication if people are going to read it wrong anyway? -_-

[–]ffsnametaken 17 points18 points ago

It's alright, everyone here is pedantic enough to notice that your statement was grammatically correct.

But i'm afraid that's boring, so now we're going to laugh at you for bumming a man.

[–]Teuthex 30 points31 points ago

dm;hs

[–]ffsnametaken 14 points15 points ago

That's the spirit

[–]ordinaryrendition 2 points3 points ago

It is humorous that you have conceded homosexuality!

[–]elsoothsayer 2 points3 points ago

bumming a man

Gives new meaning to the phrase "bum a cigarette".

[–]ffsnametaken 5 points6 points ago

Combine that with Brits calling cigarettes "fags" and we have a lot of opportunity for being immature.

[–]blazterx 0 points1 point ago

read it without the comma.

[–]Artegan 56 points57 points ago

Did OP just fix a small part of religion?

[–]clubdepizza 3 points4 points ago*

That logic - "God created science" - might rock some fundie's worlds.

edit credit to DeadDropFred: changed "more" to "rock". Doesn't make any sense to me either

[–]farangiyeparsi 1 point2 points ago

Actually, Islam pretty much shares his view.

[–]craiggers 1 point2 points ago

Actually, a lot of Christianity pretty much shares his view. Just not the segment with the bullhorn on the streets.

[–]smintitule 49 points50 points ago

Honestly, I'm not atheist (in fact I'd consider myself a pretty devout christian), but I browse /r/atheism because of some of the ridiculous things that fundamentalists think, and I could not agree with you more on this. I'm proud of you for dealing with his lunacy in a positive way. Pretty much everything you said there, whether you meant it in jest or not, is and has been a part of my belief system since I learned what "science" was.

[–]oedipusanonymous 39 points40 points ago

This is the point. I really don't care whether you believe in a god (even though I don't understand why you would), just don't deny science and reality. The real, natural world is fascinating if you will give it a chance, but it doesn't work like the bible; you can cherry pick the bible, but you can't simply cherry pick widely accepted scientific theory.

[–]smintitule 4 points5 points ago

I completely agree. So much of the Bible has to be open to liberal interpretation anyways. Just because in the Old Testament, God commands Hosea to "take unto [himself] a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms" doesn't mean that he was actually commanded to marry a prostitute (although, please, feel free to use that as an example to anyone that says the bible should be interpreted literally; it's great to hear people try to justify it--Hosea chapter 1, verse 2).

[–][deleted] 33 points34 points ago

Atheists who get annoyed at fundamentalists would do well to learn from this.

There's a whole new breed of Christians (You know, the one that HATES religion and LOVES Jesus) emerging thanks to this wonderful Internet thing, and instead of being ridiculous like their forefathers, they're trying to make their beliefs fit reality when they realize their religions have been preaching falsehoods.

You're not likely to convince them to give up God and Jesus, but if you show them how their version of Christianity actually goes against God, you might actually get them to stop being scientifically retarded.

Plus if Christians actually FOLLOWED what Jesus taught, we'd stop being so annoyed by them. (Unless you're a moneychanger at a temple... then probably not so much)

[–]Noname_acc 7 points8 points ago

Tax collectors would be ok though.

[–]Noname_acc 12 points13 points ago

You're doing God's work, son.

[–]wonderfuldog 31 points32 points ago

Impressive.

I think I like this better than that fucking Einstein story.

[–]Eboe101 16 points17 points ago

... or that "hates fruit, likes apples" crap. I have no problem with "religion" per se, it is when "Fundies" (Fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist Muslim Ect.) try to get the rest of the world to follow their madness through force.

[–]BadWolf0 9 points10 points ago

This post is great. My father is a nuclear physicist. Also, he is one of the smartest people I know. I have NEVER won a debate with him, he is proficient in many areas and regularly consumes some new interest with insane dedication. He goes on weeks long "research streaks." He is also a devoutly religous Jew. Orthodox to the core, but hated by most of his Rabbis for his love of criticizing their speeches scientifically and historically. He raised me to be a Jew, and many failures happened there, but he also raised me to question and taught me his views on god and science. He regaled me with funny stories of the earlier years of religion and enjoys laughing at absurdities couched in modern "histories of religion." I've always suspected that he just goes through the motions, but I now believe he really is devout/believes. You just PERFECTLY espoused what I took from my religous childhood to my atheistic (almost kinda) adulthood. Thank you, much enjoyed here L:D

[–]MrWendal 12 points13 points ago

Almost all of them were from China and India and I was annoyed and grumbling when we left to go get coffee

This ... sounds kinda bad ....

Would you care to explain?

[–]BigHoffDaddy 9 points10 points ago

You sir just opened up the pathways to peace and understanding. Thank you for putting the many thoughts i've had on both sides into one easy to read and understand post. Upvote for sure.

[–]Omnix_NerZ 12 points13 points ago

Good Guy Atheist: Meets a religious zealot

Doesn't tell him to stop believing in deity

[–]Osiris32 17 points18 points ago

Fire and brimstone preaching? That was rapid combustion and sulfur, my friend!!

[–]PinheadX 6 points7 points ago

rapid oxidation

[–]Eboe101 28 points29 points ago

In this war on religion, you, sir, are a knight in shining armor. The shiniest damn armor in the world.

[–]OmegaSnowWolf 5 points6 points ago

He is the knight this thread needs

[–]fractalguy 5 points6 points ago

In college I went to an evolution vs. creationism "discussion" (really just an ID circle-jerk) and used this exact argument. Really all it took was to simply ask "What if evolution is just HOW god created man?" I couldn't believe it but none of those present had ever been asked this question or thought about it this way. Instead of butting heads, we ended up having a very productive discussion and all of those present were very receptive.

It's far more important that people accept evolution (and science in general) than reject god or religion. If you really want to help move the discourse forward and not just argue for the sake of argument, this is definitely the approach you should take.

[–]aakaakaak 7 points8 points ago

The funny thing is that I'm not an atheist and I had the exact same belief you "preached" to him a long time ago. Albeit with a little less biblical knowledge, but about the same nonetheless. I don't understand why many Christians can't accept the "touching the void" thing can be considered the big bang?

Edit: As a theist: more atheist posts like this one please.

[–]Cyberus 22 points23 points ago

That was beautifully told. I want to stand up and applaud you.

"I didn't come from a monkey, that's a lie."

"Could God come down and make a monkey into a person if He so desired?"

"That's stupid. God wouldn't do that."

"Are you saying God's Power is stupid?"

Also, I think I love you.

[–]ncjenkin 0 points1 point ago

No! You can't have him! I want him!!!

[–]powatom 7 points8 points ago

Almost all of them were from China and India and I was annoyed and grumbling when we left to go get coffee and take a break.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you implying that a Chinese or Indian person couldn't possible be good enough to work with you?

[–]grayshine 12 points13 points ago*

This is great. There's thing, called inferential distance.

People can only connect to ideas a certain distance of inference away from them. If you start talking concepts too far away, then they'll refuse to cross the gap.

What you did was you closed that distance, and gave him a stepping stone across the vast gap. And that's how this battle will be won. With discussion. Not with attacks. Bravo.

[–]simjanes2k 32 points33 points ago

Quick, someone with an internet! Award him one!

[–]goodbyeart 19 points20 points ago

THAT. IS. AWESOME.

Sincerely,

someone much less eloquent in speech than you.

[–]loganfire3 7 points8 points ago

I like the way you explained it, very nice dude. The fact that you did not discredit his religion makes you a class act.

[–]IanCoolidge 4 points5 points ago

I went to 13 years of Catholic school. We were taught Evolution solely. Creationism was taught in metaphors and we were all taught that the Bible was simply a Metaphor to teach unintelligent and non-advanced peoples how God created the Universe.

They taught us more or less exactly what you just said to that guy. The Catholic church does not reject Evolution and my Catholic school taught me everything about it.

Fundamentalist Christians and "non-denominational" Christians are the Blight of everyone who follows Christ - in my opinion.

However - maybe they do need Creationism. Remember how before I said I was taught the Creation story was a big Metaphor to teach unintelligent and backwards people how to understand God's work?

Yeah - those people are unintelligent and backwards people. There is no sense teaching them, they can't understand it. They're just stupid.

That all being said. Ironically I'm an atheist because of my years of Catholic school. They taught me to think critically and made me an intelligent person. As any atheist could tell you - thinking critically about God and Religion will make you stray from it. Ironic really.

[–]PallidumTreponema 2 points3 points ago

They're not necessarily unintelligent.

They just haven't challenged their beliefs enough.

There may be several reasons for this, one being that perhaps their beliefs is what they KNOW is true. If you KNOW something is true, you don't challenge it, right? Now, the problem is that what they, or you, or I know is not necessarily the truth. Just look at how many times you've known something, and later realized that you were wrong? I for one have known many things that I've later realised was wrong - just ask my husband. ;)

The trick is to make people start to think about what they know, and help them look at things from a different angle. This is the step towards helping them see that perhaps there are more sides to the story.

I consider myself to be a highly intelligent person, but I've been wrong on so many things that I've known to be true. Each time I've learned I was wrong has been when I took a step back and started thinking about what I knew, rather than just assuming that it was true because I knew it was true.

[–]cyberslick188 5 points6 points ago

And the award for fakest fakeness to have ever been faked goes to dogboybastard.

[–]susuhead 9 points10 points ago

Sir, you are magnificent. I have nothing more tangible than an upvote to offer but please know that I think you're the dog's dangly bits.

Where did this take place, by the way? You mentioned ethnicities in the first paragraph and then not once after that, which kind of confused me.

[–]8spd 8 points9 points ago

That confused me too, and I'm having a hard time as interpreting it as anything other than the original poster being annoyed that all the applicants were Chinese and Indian and not white. I'm surprised that I had to scroll this far down to any mention of it.

Any clarification? Or am I left to believe that this is a story of an intelligent response to a fundamentalist given by someone with some bigoted ideas. I hope I'm wrong.

[–]Lowbacca1977 4 points5 points ago

Not ethnicities, but nationalities. I think it's that he was already annoyed that in the US, a predominant portion of those doing science are immigrants. Not that people being from elsewhere is bad, but that it highlights that people born and raised here are avoiding science.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

wow, you're really reading into that one bigoted sentence. that one sentence highlights all that for you?

[–]Lowbacca1977 0 points1 point ago

Well, it would be easier if he gave any indication that he had additional views he shared that dealt with how he views people refusing science. Oh wait.

Also note that I specifically said "I think" and acknowledge that fully that's just my read on it.

[–][deleted] ago

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[–]dogboybastard[S] 36 points37 points ago

I was more saying that the ID folks say “this is how God did it all and we can know it” instead of “these are the tools God created to do it all and we can learn about those tools”.

At least that was what I was trying to say. I think that’s the message he got. He asked me what books he needed to read to better understand it all. I told him that since God created all the Sciences that by studying basic math, physics, chemistry, biology, he was in fact studying God’s Handiwork. That seemed to light some kind of spark in him.

[–][deleted] ago

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[–]dogboybastard[S] 25 points26 points ago

Thanks. This is actually how I can have very close friends that are devoutly religious. They know what I believe. But over time (to a degree) this is how they have come to view the world and their Faith – how they can juxtapose the two and not have them oppose each other.

[–]auntjomomma 9 points10 points ago

My dad is like this. He reads science books and studies microbiology, etc, and views it as God's way of opening his eyes to the world of science. He also happens to really love science. i don't know his whole view on evolution,but I do know that to a point he knows that there can be micro evolution (evolution on a small scale, i think) or something like that. You and my dad would have awesome discussions (he is about the same age as you. lol) about science. This was probably the first post that i have seen since i have been subscribed to /r/atheism that was actually intelligent and in which you weren't bashing the person for their beliefs. I highly commend you on that, my good sir.

[–]bedhead269 6 points7 points ago

You sir, have expressed my thoughts perfectly.

[–]M_E_T_H_O_Dman 6 points7 points ago

I just watched Ace Ventura: Pet Detective. I read this post in Jim Carry's voice. It was hilarious.

[–]BoomboxHero 7 points8 points ago

Thank you for presenting this story as prose and not as a rage comic.

[–]WhitePostIt 4 points5 points ago

That's pretty insightful. If all theists thought like you did, I think I would get along fine with religion - still wouldn't believe in a God, but I wouldn't roll my eyes every time I heard about him.

My mom was watching a documentary with me one day about the origin of life, and when it came to the first vertebrates, she said "What, we didn't come from fish!". I lolled, because while she accepted we descended from apes, she couldn't make the connection from fish to human.

So I said: "Mom, can a fish eventually evolve into a salamander?" She agreed. "So then, can a salamander eventually evolve into a lizard?" and she agreed.

"So if that lizard, can become hundreds of different reptiles right?" she agreed.

"So say one reptile grows a little bit of fur, another grows some feathers, and a third loses its legs. You could believe that these eventually evolved into rats, birds and snakes right?" she agreed.

"so the rat lives in the trees, and you can believe it evolves into a monkey right?" she agreed.

"And so then one monkey stays in the trees, the other goes back to the ground and loses its tail, thus becoming a primate, and this primate evolves into a human. Right?" She agreed.

"So can you now see how we evolved, over hundreds of millions of years, from fish?"

"Yes, is that why some people are so stupid then?"

"Yes mother"

[–]Nimero 3 points4 points ago

Thank you for not making a rage comic.

[–]khanfusion 4 points5 points ago

You're doing it right.

[–]NovusHomoSapiens 4 points5 points ago

Here is what I think: if all of them religious people are trapped in an eternal delusion, then it's better to turn them to a positive and educational illusion where they will actually learn something and let's hope somehow by luck they will actually see the truth.

Kudos to you sir.

[–]CaptainObviousMC 13 points14 points ago

People really need to learn more about logic and the philosophy of science.

[–]Xyberdyne 18 points19 points ago

At my job there is a guy who reads the bible really loud at people passing by. On my lunch break I sometimes read about the amazing sir Lancelot and other tales of slaying dragons just as loud. At times it turns into a match of who reads the loudest. If only I had more than a half an hour to waste doing this. He gets so upset when people high five me.

[–]abenfVA 10 points11 points ago

I didn't know middle schoolers were legally allowed to hold jobs.

[–]mitchmalloy 2 points3 points ago

Please, please get video of this next time. e___e

[–]psyberwraith 39 points40 points ago

I regret that I have but one upvote to give.

[–]chrisknyfe 4 points5 points ago

You... you get it.

[–]Bankzzz 1 point2 points ago

I literally loled at "Are you saying God's Power is stupid?"

[–]haiku_robot 5 points6 points ago

I literally 
loled at "Are you saying God's 
Power is stupid?"

[–]tyler5613 3 points4 points ago

Most badass thing I've read on /r/atheism in quite a while. I wish I had the ability to craft such an impeccable argument. Great job sir!

[–]Alenonimo 2 points3 points ago

I must agree with you. It was badass.

[–]agrodkiewicz 3 points4 points ago

You know...I'm a christian, and I don't 100% agree with you here...but I really appreciate that you went about that intelligently...Christians and atheists alike tend to go about things with abject hatred rather than well thought out arguments...this certainly was different.

I don't know how exactly I feel about literal spoken creation vs. evolution, but this is certainly some food for thought!

[–]wiseguy430 3 points4 points ago

THIS is how you win these arguments. THIS is how to get them to listen to you.

Please, all of r/athiesm, learn how to do THIS.

[–]Scarjaka 1 point2 points ago

I'm kind of excited, this is the first time I've gotten to use this gif.

[–]PlunkaDyik 2 points3 points ago

shitthatneverhappened.txt

[–]RedDaggerx 4 points5 points ago

You have made the world a better place.

[–]elbruce 9 points10 points ago

Deism > Theism every time.

[–]newtype2099 6 points7 points ago

well, this is a good story, but i have trouble beleiving it. I like to imagine it happened, OP, but I can only think of it as a good fantasy.

this story is why I am a Deist. I think if there was a god, or pantheon thereof, they'd be so insanely powerful and beautiful that no one could ever imagine or see them in full grandeur. nor do I believe they'd have power in our plane of existence due to the various laws of sciences in our world.

[–]efrique 2 points3 points ago

Cool.

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]crob101 1 point2 points ago

I don't really care for perpetuating his belief in some kind of metaphysical being creating all of the things he disagrees with so now he has to accept them. Better to cut the baby from the bottle and include the fact that he's believing in the ramblings of a small sect of desert peoples, mistranslated and perverted through thousands of years and now twisted to fit a political message. Ya know, Athiesm stuff.

[–]Broke_Joke 2 points3 points ago

As an atheist im going to thank you for helping christians understand that science shaped our world today and that its not worthless, you made the world a little bit more intelligent today. Upvoted for being awesome.

[–]coldize 0 points1 point ago

Deism

[–]kalimashookdeday 2 points3 points ago*

Loved this. I only wish more atheists would have the same attitude when debating with fundies. Usually after about 2 lines or sentences in, you will notice some kind of commentary or personal attack on how dumb that person was or how illogical and stupid they sound, so that justified the personal attacking and coming at them with hostility. I urge more atheists/agnostics to approach religious zealots, no matter what religion, like this. As the OP exemplified, it usually goes way better than the alternatives. Think of this story when the multitudes of douchebag militant atheists tell you "Being a super asshole and dick is the only way to reach these people".

Hats off to you OP, you make me proud to be a person.

EDIT: Spelling

[–]scrawnypaleman 0 points1 point ago

I think I am going to read this every night for inspiration.

[–]Liebonaut 2 points3 points ago

You, sir, are doing it right. This way of thinking--how can a truth-loving God create us with intelligence and wish us to use it, but not allow it to bring us to truth--was actually exactly what led me to become agnostic/atheist. I wish there were more atheists like you and fewer like Richard Dawkins, honestly, because you actually persuade when you speak, rather than lambasting and deriding those who seem ignorant. The only way to cure ignorance is education, and you educated this man in a way that reading The God Delusion almost certainly would not have.

Thank you!

[–]kemojawo 1 point2 points ago

I don't always upvote threads in /r/atheism, but when I do, it's because good things like this.

Good on ya

[–]Fearmarbh 1 point2 points ago

Are... Are you Jesus?

[–]ahora 2 points3 points ago

Is not that alittle hipocritical?

[–]arch1medes 1 point2 points ago

you sir, are a gentleman and a scholar! i tip my hat to you!!

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

bigoted man claims that Indians and Chinese aren't good enough to work for him but bullies a christian - reddit up vote him.

[–]dogboybastard[S] 2 points3 points ago

I did not mean it that way. I was merely trying to express that when I have to interview a pool of candidates for positions that my own countrymen are obviously absent. And when they do show up their counterparts tends to blow them away technically. And for that I blame our education system and the folks, like this ID guy, that want to bascially remove science from it.

[–]theawesomeone 4 points5 points ago

You guys, you've all been had. The lesson is actually for atheists, and the message is that everything we believe in can coexist with a God. He's actually talking in terms meant for atheists. We got an advanced level fundie here. Don't fall for the trap!

[–]xyroclast 3 points4 points ago

I'm sorry but this reads way too much like fiction.

[–]MaidenLane 1 point2 points ago*

Only one problem - there is no god. Acting like there is one seems to ultimately do more to hurt your cause then help it.

[–]DentD 3 points4 points ago

But is his cause to outright eliminate religion? It might be yours, but it seems to me his cause was aimed at eliminating fundamentalist stupidity.

[–]PallidumTreponema 8 points9 points ago

See, that's your problem. I for one have no problems with someone's beliefs, as long as they can see the reality in front of them. If they can see the extent of our scientific knowledge and appreciate it, I could care less if they think God created it, or if it came from... well, we don't really know, do we?

The fundamentalist who tried to tell people that Darwin was a liar, will now be more open to the concept of evolution, not to mention other sciences. Perhaps this person will now be more open to other concepts as well, and in time may decide to believe that there is no God at all.

But to just tell him that "There is no God" will just make him angry and not want to listen.

Small steps, grasshopper. You cannot change the world overnight, but perhaps you can make one person think.

[–]MaidenLane 1 point2 points ago

The world would be better without religion, so I see no harm in wanting to eliminate it.

[–]PallidumTreponema 3 points4 points ago

Ah, but would you not also agree that the world would be better off without fundamentalist religion?

What about theists that are willing to learn, to challenge their beliefs, who are willing to change their world views given that they acquire more knowledge?

What if I changed the word "theists" to "scientists"?

Religion itself does not need to work in absolutes. In fact, many modern theists fully appreciate the scientific discoveries we've made just as much as atheists. Many of them incorporate it into their beliefs, allowing them to embrace science and society without it interfering in their faith.

Let's take a theist that fully accepts the Big Bang theory, for instance, but the Big Bang was divine in origin, rather than caused by natural forces, or from a chaotic void? Is that so dangerous to the world?

If I came up to you and told you that the world would be better off without atheist, you'd laugh in my face. Or punch me. You certainly wouldn't give my words a second thought.

That's what your words are like for a theist. In order to change their minds, you need to talk in a language that they'll understand. Start explaining things in their language, and perhaps you'll make them start thinking. If they do, they're on their way to start challenging their world views.

Small steps. Help people to start thinking, and you'll have done them a bigger favor.

[–]EliMacGuffin 1 point2 points ago

This looks like apologist fuel

[–]hempfarmer 1 point2 points ago

How did you remember that entire conversation?!

[–]FriedMattato 2 points3 points ago

Have my upvotes. Have them all!

Not enough atheists realize that, in order to persuade someone, you have to talk to them in terms they can understand.

Simple stating the non-existence of God will only drive up a wall in these people, over which insults and arguments will be hurled in a war of debate, neither side pondering the assertions of the opposition.

Even if it means faking a belief in God for the moment, the most effective tactic would be to subtly encourage critical thinking in them. A mental equivalent of a Trojan Horse. The ability to think critically and logically will inevitably lead to a realization of truth and rejection of dogma.

[–]kaswaro 2 points3 points ago

Christian here, no sarcasm I promise. Way to go! Please,please,please, inspire more people to talk sense into my brethren. They are in fact making the God of the bible upset at them, with their ignorance in their beliefs and actions. They put themselves on such high ground, when really we're all humans, filthy, little, humans.

[–]compromisedsolace 0 points1 point ago

"I smiled at him. "I am of a sorts, yes," I said."

Cocky, annoying tit. This is just another chance for you to say "Look at me, look at me, look at ME, ME ME."

[–]DarrenEdwards 0 points1 point ago

And this is why we lose. We have to stoop to their level just to communicate. We have to use scripture and religious language to prove hypocrisy. We still have to use words like heaven and soul in our conversation and they have to take on the current popular christian version of the words. While science, medicine, government and just about any aspect of culture that christianity wants, it claims as it's own.

[–]Kyrgizion 19 points20 points ago

You don't try to teach quantum physics to a dog. No matter what you do, it will never understand it, because it's a dog.

Same principle.

[–]dogboybastard[S] 32 points33 points ago

I learned a long time ago you can’t beat anyone with the data stick if they don’t accept data. We can’t use historical facts if they ignore history and refuse to accept facts. When I began learning Aikido decades ago I figured I could use the same principals in debate.

[–]elbruce 7 points8 points ago

Maybe if you barked in just the right sequence...

[–]gimpwiz 9 points10 points ago

Woof woof, woof, woof.

Fuck you, my mother was a saint.

[–]fractalguy 5 points6 points ago

A more appropriate metaphor would be trying to teach quantum physics in English to someone that only speaks Chinese. If you take the time to learn their language then you will be much more successful, especially if they have no willingness to learn English. The fact is that both science and religion are attempting to describe the same universe. One language is just a lot more metaphorical than the other. If you can speak their language enough to make this point then you actually have a fighting chance at persuasion.

[–]Eboe101 14 points15 points ago

ಠ_ಠ comparing a naive human to a dog? No need to insult canines ...

[–]DefinitelyRelephant 1 point2 points ago

Bad example - these are people, not dogs, and they DO have the capacity for rational thought, they're just either unaware of it or they reject it in favor of magical thinking because of fear.

[–]fractalguy 2 points3 points ago

You lose when you say to someone that the thing they have built their entire belief system, emotional security, community and everything they have in life is BS. They will never listen no matter how right you are. If you can present your arguments in a way that they will listen and consider what you say then you win. Is your goal to be right and pat yourself on the back for being so smart, or to be persuasive and actually do the world some good?

[–]Beaker271 0 points1 point ago

Bravo

[–]DocNothro 1 point2 points ago

I have family members in need of this explanation...

[–]nickha0 1 point2 points ago

You outlogic'd him at his own game.

Very impressive indeed.

[–]RowingCox 0 points1 point ago

Fucking brilliant! Thats all I can say. Grade A effort my friend.

[–]honeynoats 1 point2 points ago

Well. Done. You put together an excellent argument, while staying civil, and never insulting. We need this to happen more frequently. This is step one to helping people abandon the blind faith they don't even understand.

[–]youni89 1 point2 points ago

Praise be to God, for creating all the sciences.

[–]madcatlady 0 points1 point ago

Epic story man! Promise to do this once for me? I'm not an on-the-feet thinker like this, and cant make an argument so well. "Believe in what you like, but don't call me a liar and discredit my work because someone else told you to."

[–]dogboybastard[S] 1 point2 points ago

Not all of them go like this. Some end up like this.

[–]Atheris 1 point2 points ago

Woot! Showing a religious person that reason isn't evil!

[–]Urbaknight 0 points1 point ago

The sciences as tools for god is a fantastic analogy. Should be used more often.

[–]namith 0 points1 point ago

Bravo, sir. I have to say, it was the arguments of creationists that first led me to seek out their counterarguments. That was what started me on the path of reason that eventually led me to atheism.

[–]SwimmingNaked 0 points1 point ago

I really wish this whole conversation was recorded on video, so that it could be shared. Anyone know of a fundie earther who might be willing to be challenged on camera for something like that?

[–]abenfVA 1 point2 points ago

a camera would fuck with any honest reactions and if anything create more tension and defense from the fundie

[–]EverGreenPLO 0 points1 point ago

Fucking awesome.

[–]Puffy_Ghost 0 points1 point ago

Best mindfuck ever?

[–]funken_drumble 0 points1 point ago

and then I woke up and realized it was all a dream....