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[–]brainlessnick 187 points188 points ago

WWI: Powerful and large empires Prussia and Austria Hungary. Lots of natural resources, fertile land and lots of people. Also, a comparably large industry compared to its neighbour countries.

WWII: A whole country going "all-in", fuelled by nationalism. After WWI, Germany was more or less raped by the winning nations. Hitler made the Germans feel strong, so they followed him.

Post-WWII: Infrastructure got destroyed, so new stuff had to be built => good roads, good powerplants, good telephone, ...

General attitudes that help a lot:

-Good work is HIGHLY valued, especially in trade, engineering and science. Education even more so. (Every decent sized city has a university and education is and has been for a long time free).

-Keep your head down and do as you're told. Pretty much most of the time, if a superior tells a German to do something, he'll do it. On time and in good quality. Why? In business/engineering/... because your superior usually worked his way up (CEOs of some of the largest Corporations in Germany are or had been Engineers, chemists etc., in small business your master was an apprentice at some point as well...) and knows his shit. In politics, because very rarely the German politician tried to screw you over, so in most cases it was for a good reason.

-Germans think long-term. Building a house? Your great-grandchildren should be able to live in that thing. Got a child? Get a savings-plan where you put 20bucks in every month so when kid's 18 (s)he can go to any university (s)he needs to.

  • Honesty. Germany has and as far as I know always had a fairly low corruption.

Post-WWII:

-Realpolitik. German politics isn't dominated by ideologies like patriotism, religion etc. It's based mostly on facts and is supposed to do the things that need to be done.

[–]Aitioma 50 points51 points ago*

As much as I agree with other things:

Keep your head down and do as you're told. Pretty much most of the time, if a superior tells a German to do something, he'll do it.

That's not at all true.

Complaining and demanding are a very important part of German culture. Your own opinion and self-representation and bringing in your own ideas is highly valued. A lot of employers see making mistakes as something positive as long as you learn from them and if you don't make mistakes then your creativity is the biggest asset for any company. General progress, research and developement live on it.

One of the biggest things for Germans is: Complaining. You complain about your job, you complain about your life, you complain about your boss. You always point out everything that you notice to be bad and improvable. It's actually important. That's considered a normal and by many a very good (yet annoying) thing.

Especially in politics it's extremely obvious that people LOVE to complain. It's extremely hard to get an absolute majority as a political party in Germany and that's insanely valuable for a country. Political debate enforces only logical/reasonable laws everyone has to accept to pass. A high level of competition for political parties is making German politics more sustainable than that of other countries. Especially in politics people are constantly unsatisfied with their representation. Regardless who wins, most people will complain anyway and demand better. Currently the pirate party is on the rise which shows once again the growing dissatisfaction with conservative and corporatist approaches.

Also:

Get a savings-plan where you put 20bucks in every month so when kid's 18 (s)he can go to any university (s)he needs to.

Every child in Germany can go to any university s/he needs to. Either your parents are rich enough or you can rely on BAföG (which is basically a mandatory scholarship for all German citizens who study in a German-speaking country, which you don't even have to pay back in full).

[–]mewomew 7 points8 points ago

One of the biggest things for Germans is: Complaining. You complain about your job, you complain about your life, you complain about your boss. You always point out everything that you notice to be bad and improvable. It's actually important. That's considered a normal and by many a very good (yet annoying) thing.

The exact opposite of Indian attitude. If something is wrong, we just adapt ourselves around it "

[–]koshercowboy 4 points5 points ago

I love Indian culture. You guys, from what I understand are simply so accepting. What I guess I don't get is the caste system.

[–]diabl020 9 points10 points ago

How can you not get the cast system??

Ah, I see.. you must be lower caste..

I'm going to have to clean my keyboard after this.

[–]rawrr69 3 points4 points ago

Also, paying for university in Germany is absolutely petty cash compared to what you would have to pay in a comparable USA university...

[–]Bloodypalace 1 point2 points ago

Yeah, what he said^

I'm paying about 15000 canadian dollars a year for my engineering degree.

[–]rawrr69 2 points3 points ago

One of the guys in r/guitar accumulated more than 100k for his Berkelee (music related) degree and has a hard time finding a well paying job with that.

Also, as a European it is very unsettling and uncomfy to hear with how much implicitness US Americans talk about their student loans they had to take around age 18, 19. A twenty-something whippersnapper with around 100k debt??? DAMN...

[–]CountVonTroll 0 points1 point ago

It's still about €8000 in Germany, depending on how you live and general rent levels in your city.

[–]brainlessnick 1 point2 points ago

True. But apart from complaining, things have to be going VERY wrong for someone to actually protest or go on strike or quit a job or anything.

and about the money to go to uni: Yes it's free, but a lot of people have a live insurance and/or Bausparvertrag that pays around the 18th birthday for such reasons. Maybe the kid wants to study in the US or something.

[–]bkwrmi 0 points1 point ago

It's not even limited to German citizens. As an American, I can go study in Germany and in most cases, it would be free (though I would be responsible for my own living costs).

[–]kingmoon 94 points95 points ago

This is like the 1st moment, I've been proud of being a german whilst browsing reddit =)

[–]jaqq 133 points134 points ago

As a fellow German I feel the need to remind you to restrain from national pride in any way. Forever.

[–]manueljs 12 points13 points ago

You should have changed the name of the country and the flag in the Post-WWII.

Something like Germany-v2.0?

[–]Nissespand 34 points35 points ago

v2.0? as in a rocket?

[–]WernherVonBraun 8 points9 points ago

Hmmm? Someone say something about rockets?

[–]TheDecline28 4 points5 points ago

Name change post ww2; Sorrywefuckedup

[–]meditonsin 5 points6 points ago

Tutunsleidwirhabensverbockt

FTFY

[–]nyando 6 points7 points ago

Um... we kinda DID. It was the Great German Reich (Großdeutsches Reich) before 1945, and the flag looked like this.

[–]berndlieferts 1 point2 points ago

You're joking but that's kind of what happened. The german constitution is only 60 years old. And the current flag is the one that was used by the 1848 revolutionaries and in the Weimar Republic. You can read up on it here and here, if you like.

[–]seldomB 1 point2 points ago*

We did this indeed. Germany called itself the "Deutsches Reich" (German Realm) or "Großdeutsches Reich" (Great German Realm) when it conquered Europe. Now we are the "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" or just "Deutschland". We call ourself "Deutsche" but the guys at Hitlers times are called the Nazis. The German flag has the colors of the "Weimarer Republik" and we have a whole collection of colours through history.

[–]knupauger 1 point2 points ago

Germany is and has always been more than twelve years of Nazi-dictatorship. It has been Germany for centuries full of great achievements in science, philosophy, arts and engineering. You can't expect them to literally throw their history "just" because of the Third Reich.

The same goes for the flag, which was changed actually . "Schwarz-Rot-Gold" have been then German colors since German campaign in the Napoleon wars. The Nazis changed the colors to black, white and red combined with the infamous Swastika. "Schwarz-Rot-Gold" as the national colors and flag were reintroduced by the new German government after the war. Technically the name was changed too, since "Germany" has never been the official name of Germany during the Nazi-regime, nor it is today.

The only I regret is that we did not change the hymn. We used the hymn before the Nazis. The Nazis used the hymn. We still use it today. Only the strophe have changed. The early German government tried to find a new hymn but failed and eventually decided to use the old hymn, again with a different strophe. And today most people aren't aware of the background of the hymn, but I can't listen to hymn. I really hate the hymn and I wish, that we would make an effort to change the hymn. Terrible, isn't it?

[–]logi 0 points1 point ago

Actually, I believe they're up to the 4th state at this point.

[–]TheFlyingBastard 15 points16 points ago

I'm a Dutchman and have to admit some jealously and admiration over the effectiveness of our rivals from the east. I must compensate for my damaged ego by making more jokes about fat Germans digging holes in our beaches and about nazi's.

[–]Almondcoconuts 9 points10 points ago

Could be worse. You could be American like me.

[–]Gnizzel 4 points5 points ago

Go on ...

[–]TheFlyingBastard 1 point2 points ago

I called my boss Mein Fuhrer today while raising my hand to eye height. He told me to get back to work because arbeit macht frei. Then he goose stepped back to his office.

Will that do?

[–]knupauger 0 points1 point ago

I wish we could make fun of our past like this.

However, and just between you and me, the Germans admire the Dutch for being a small yet so successful country (at which they overlook that being a small country can help to become successful). But don't tell anyone. We have to keep the rivalry alive du Käskopp ;)

[–]vekko[!] 0 points1 point ago

I thought the standard joke was about having your grandad's bike stolen by the Nazi's when they were fleeing.

[–]LuxOFlux 0 points1 point ago

But we came up with "coffee shops".

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

What the fuck, whenever America practices realpolitik we get told that we are hypocritical fuckwads. I thought all foreign policy had to be based on ideological purity.

[–]kitatatsumi 2 points3 points ago

You have lots to be proud of

[–]needmoreknowledge 1 point2 points ago

I'm half German and right now I'm thankful it's my fathers half :D

[–]Yaovi 19 points20 points ago

Germany's success does not owe as much to the "German spirit" as so many people here are suggesting. Is there in contrast things wrong with the Portuguese, Greek, Italian, or French "spirits" that have made these countries less succesfull?

A countrie's economic success has a lot more to do with the decisions of its leaders and the country's geopolical strength.

Yes, Germany was destroyed during WW2, but after the war, West Germany was a close ally of the West that helped Germany rebuild itself. West Germany got reindustrialized and the economy improved as it did in the rest of Europe throughout the 60's. Industrialization is very special to Germany as this is what differentiates it from its European neighbours. Great Britain and France benefitted from selling its products to its colonies or territories of influence. Germany in contrary had to be more competitive as it lost its colonies during WW1.

In the 1980's and the onslaught of Neo-Liberal politics and the oil crisis of 1970's, European nations turned away from industrialization. In this time, particularly Great Britain under Thatcher, lost its industries. They turned towards consumer economies, and Great Britain particularly turned towards a finance economy. The reunification of with East Germany caused issues as capital was transfered to the East, but it also supplied Germany with a large well trained workforce ready to work in industries.

Being a developed industrial nation is mainly what makes Germany rich. Now there is in some part due to the German character as labour unions in Germany accepted to keep their wages relatively low in order to remain competitive. In France (who along with Italy is Germany's main industrial rival in Europe) the working week was reduced to 35 hours in order to keep unemployment low. This made French company's less comptitive in comparison to German ones as it is more expensive to produce the same thing since workers have higher wages. Germany has a strong advantage as it has a highly skilled workforce and infrastructure that works for relatively less than other developed nations. Germany was the largest exporter in the World until China surpassed them 2 years ago, and is ahead of the US, almost 4 times its size- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

Add to this a monetary policy of the Euro which is favourable to Germany while being too high for the other economies in Europe and you can understand Germany's success. Its government has also done well to keep the deficit lower than its European neighbours by spending less on Social services.

[–]dasn4pp3l 1 point2 points ago

by spending less on Social services.

And yet we have one of the best Social Services System worldwide, where theoretically nobody has to live on the streets.

(If they wouldn't be drug addicted)

[–]Yaovi 0 points1 point ago

I think I should have said Public Spending instead of specyfying socail services. Compared to its GNP, Germany is one of the good students in Europe in Public Spending, France is the country that spends the most

[–]abigareyes 11 points12 points ago

I want to be german now

[–]Ergydion 5 points6 points ago

Germans really like to save their money. Many people here think a lot about how to save their money and invest it better.

[–]bobleplask 1 point2 points ago

There is some truth to this. I've met Germans all over the world, lived with a few in Australia and Norway. I've never encountered anyone who's so interested in the price of food, and anything at all really. But it's more fun than annoying. When I call them out on it they get a bit embarrassed and say something like "But it's so expensive".

Germans are great people. Hard working, enjoy a beer, always on time and trustworthy. That's my experience at least.

[–]Ergydion 1 point2 points ago

Yeah but sometimes it's annoying. I read about an italian guy, who said: "In Italy food has to be good, in Germany it has to be cheap"

True story, but I hate cheap disgusting food

[–]bobleplask 0 points1 point ago

Haha, that is a good point. What they eat hardly looks good. Sausages with mustard on white bread is not my idea of a great meal.

[–]lefike 7 points8 points ago

Austria-Hungary are not Germany. They were part for a few years during Hitler's reign, but definitely not the reason why Germany was able to pick itself up after WWI.

[–]brainlessnick 0 points1 point ago

True, but I didn't say that it was for post-WWI. They are the reason why Germany was so powerful DURING WWI as they pretty much belonged together.

[–]lefike 1 point2 points ago

They were allies, but most, if not all militaric power was from Germany. The Austrian army was dealt a decisive blow very early on and had virtually no effect for most of the war.

[–]Garage_Dragon 6 points7 points ago

You forgot to mention Germany's heavy investment in alternative energy as an example of a forward thinking society. When China, India, and the U.S. are all embroiled in the coming Energy resource wars, Germany will be sitting on the sidelines eating popcorn.

[–]Beevo 6 points7 points ago

I think that has a lot to do with...

-Realpolitik. German politics isn't dominated by ideologies like patriotism, religion etc. It's based mostly on facts and is supposed to do the things that need to be done.

It's something I always admire in other countries, but it's rare.

[–]BATMAN-cucumbers 0 points1 point ago

I hope those investments were sound, considering they declared 8 of their 17 nuclear reactors permanently shut down after the Japanese nuclear snafu. The guys were apparently getting a quarter of their energy from nuclear.

At the same time, Germany continues to rely heavily on coal power, with usage increasing to offset the phase-out of nuclear energy

And that's the type of stuff that makes me cringe at how much politicians care about the (often not properly informed) public opinion.

[–]Enda169 1 point2 points ago

German politics isn't dominated by ideologies like patriotism, religion etc. It's based mostly on facts and is supposed to do the things that need to be done.

Not really. Maybe not as bad as the pure theatre American politics is, but it is still dominated by ideologies. Not patriotism, but neo-liberalism for example.

[–]Negro_Napoleon 0 points1 point ago

I feel like I want to be a German

[–]Jamesburton69 0 points1 point ago

In an economic note; the rebuilding process in germany was the largest in the post WWII world. This means it had a high GDP for the next 20 years as they rebuilt the country. same goes for Japan (another Japanese world power), and due to the very lenient loans given by the rest of the world they were both able to rebuild at a fairly low cost-leading to higher than average growth rates. Combined with everything you mentioned this leads to greater long term growth.

[–]meepstah 390 points391 points ago

Germany is an industrious, educated nation with an excellent social infrastructure and minimal internal strife. They excel in manufacturing and management. In short, per the cliche, they're efficient.

[–]Rouhani_9 81 points82 points ago

How did this come to be, then? I think that's what OP is really asking for.

Is it simply responsible leadership throughout history?

[–]THLycanthrope 48 points49 points ago

Nature/Nurture argument at that point. My wife is 100% German and the sixth generation in America. NO ONE in her family knows how to stop working and relax. Relaxing is sending email and shopping on a laptop, while watching a show on the TV.
Maybe it's just her family ethic, or maybe it's developed from generations in a mostly landlocked area successfully trading with and fending off neighbors from all over Europe.

[–]minecrafterambesten 19 points20 points ago

That's interesting. Based on the Germans I've interacted with, they're very good at getting work done, and then are able to go on Holiday to Egypt for 3 weeks several times per year.

[–]konohasaiyajin 10 points11 points ago

Yeah, what the hell, "bank holiday". I always feel like the Germans do less work yet somehow get more done. I guess that relates to the original comment of them being efficient.

[–]zanotam 2 points3 points ago

Actually, the reason (I had trouble finding a good source, but a lot of somewhat reliable sources seemed to agree) that Henry Ford invented the modern 40 hour work week was that it was basically just as efficient as 60 hours (10 hours, 6 days) and it gave people more time off, further enhancing the economy. From what I've read, the basic idea is that after around 40 hours, the increase in mistakes means that the work produced is basically worth 0 net hours, just constantly requiring fixes from what would have been productive time under the 40 hour work week.

[–]rawrr69 15 points16 points ago

This is one of those stereotypes but I think there is some truth to it... on average USA workers put in crazy more hours but get less done while their German counterparts have strictly regulated work hours and TONS of vacation, holidays and free time and still manage to get more done. There are even newspaper articles and statistics on this.

I think one reason might be, what I understand from my US American friend and colleague: with how many HOURS you worked, you demonstrate how important you are and how valuable you are for the company in the USA; whereas in Germany, they tend to care more about what things have you gotten done and putting in crazy hours each week isn't even an option anyway. So they would weed out employees who do nothing productive even if they were attending office 12 hours each day and look important.

[–]superAL1394 1 point2 points ago

This differs from company to company. In the tech sector, for example, it is pretty normal for people to never actually go to the 'office' but to work from home. If you produce results, you are rewarded handsomely. Yet in the older corporate world, for example like GM, this is most certainly true.

[–]intheaethyr 8 points9 points ago*

Everyone in Europe gets at least 6 weeks paid time off a year. (well the actual number is 5.7 or something weird like that) So that particularly isn't a German thing.

edit: it's actually 4 for all of europe after checking, it's just higher in a few of the countries. (the numbers I quoted were for the UK.)

[–]minecrafterambesten 2 points3 points ago

That makes sense. I only have had any experience with Germans though, so I couldn't say for sure.

[–]DownvotesGetMeHorny 2 points3 points ago

Actually it varies. Some The average is five however some places get four even three.

[–]intheaethyr 1 point2 points ago

You made me doubt it and you're right. We must just have better standards in the UK. But it has to be at least 4 by EU Directive.

[–]richalex2010 0 points1 point ago

While two seems pretty standard in the US. Hell, the US military gets more time off than most US civilians do, at four weeks per year (although it can be in an odd schedule, given how military deployments actually work out).

[–]kristystianwin 0 points1 point ago

German law says that 24 vacation days / year are mandatory, but most people get more.

[–]Aitioma 34 points35 points ago

Except Germans have a lot more freetime and social welfare than you Americans and most Germans I know who worked in America see the US as a corporatist slavedriver nation who doesn't give its employees enough time for their own lives without labeling them as lazy or straightout parasites. (Not trying to bash Americans, that's just the experience I know of.)

[–]smibly 11 points12 points ago

A life? Why would you want one of those? Aren't you a team player? /s

[–]HarryLillis 2 points3 points ago

Really? Do Germans work less than 40 hours?

[–]Aitioma 9 points10 points ago

No, they have simply considerably more (paid) holidays and (paid) days off.

[–]rnickname 4 points5 points ago

Deciding as in the works council fought for this to be established.

[–]kristystianwin 3 points4 points ago

Yeah, but a Betriebsrat is a very German thing.

[–]HarryLillis 2 points3 points ago

Well, I'm moving to Germany.

[–]saboturd 2 points3 points ago

Germans have more vacation days.

[–]zanotam 3 points4 points ago

Actually, the reason (I had trouble finding a good source, but a lot of somewhat reliable sources seemed to agree) that Henry Ford invented the modern 40 hour work week was that it was basically just as efficient as 60 hours (10 hours, 6 days) and it gave people more time off, further enhancing the economy. From what I've read, the basic idea is that after around 40 hours, the increase in mistakes means that the work produced is basically worth 0 net hours, just constantly requiring fixes from what would have been productive time under the 40 hour work week.

[–]SealCubClubbingClub 21 points22 points ago

genes or lack of water

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points ago

Now kiss?

[–]SealCubClubbingClub 1 point2 points ago

hahaha, you busy wednesday's? bring your snow shoes!

[–]fernguts 5 points6 points ago

Simple geometry. You can fit more brains into a square-head than a spherical one.

[–]Isek 9 points10 points ago

Notsureifserious.jpg

[–]meepstah 16 points17 points ago

mathematicallyincorrect.jpg

[–]Angry_Table_Flipper 0 points1 point ago

because-no-one-mentioned-dimensions.psd

for Canada

because-no-one-mentioned-dimensions.jpg

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

So, lack of water can cause that?

Perhaps I should stop drinking it in such abundance.

[–]Ran4 9 points10 points ago

Relaxing is sending email and shopping on a laptop, while watching a show on the TV.

...yes?

[–]StrangerSkies 7 points8 points ago

Yeah, I'm not sure what else relaxing is supposed to look like. That sounds good to me!

[–]diMario 191 points192 points ago

The Germans approach reality with a pragmatic attitude, like the Baltic states and the Netherlands.

Instead of responding to changing circumstances from a dogmatic point of view, such as religion or conservatism, they actually perceive what is changing and formulate a strategy to benefit from it.

Also, they are firm believers in the idea that those who cannot make it on their own should have a little help from those that are doing well for themselves. In the longer run, this spreads the prosperity of the country to all its citizens.

[–]Khiva 194 points195 points ago

Well there's a convenient answer that appeals to every redditor prejudice while completely ignoring Germany's emphasis on its export sector, its aversion to finance and the fact that Germany was only trudging along economically under Schroeder.

[–]diMario 48 points49 points ago

Like I said, they are responding to reality in a pragmatic way. Everything you just interjected supports my original thesis.

[–]conbon27 10 points11 points ago

there was a little issue called East Germany which West Germany had to bring up to scratch, hence the so-called "trudging along", don't bring up a point if you don't have a grasp of the context of it.

[–]Piratiko 32 points33 points ago

those who cannot make it on their own should have a little help from those that are doing well for themselves

holds up crucifix

NO! Evil! Evil Socialism!

[–]diMario 25 points26 points ago

Guilty. In fact, I am a card-carrying member of the Royal Dutch Socialist Party and have even run for office, both as an alderman and for the Provincial Chamber of Flevoland. I was too low on the Party list though to actually be eligible for the seat.

[–]Igggg 6 points7 points ago

Also, they are firm believers in the idea that those who cannot make it on their own should have a little help from those that are doing well for themselves. In the longer run, this spreads the prosperity of the country to all its citizens.

Which sounds completely reasonable to anyone outside of America, and is labeled as socialism (the generic swear word) inside.

[–]diMario 5 points6 points ago

It must be difficult as a reasonable human being to reside in America these days. I wish you strength.

[–]Gortos 6 points7 points ago

I am German and I confirm this.

[–]PlusFiveStrength 2 points3 points ago

Prima

[–]kefka296 1 point2 points ago

Is your username something German...it sounds German...

[–]Gortos 0 points1 point ago

Pure fantasy word. :D

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]nzhamstar 1 point2 points ago

Instead of responding to changing circumstances from a dogmatic point of view, such as religion or conservatism, they actually perceive what is changing and formulate a strategy to benefit from it.

Do you know what caused this kind of/shift in thinking?

It seems to me like the countries round that part of the world excel without religion to hold them back...

[–]berndlieferts 1 point2 points ago*

what caused this kind of/shift in thinking

The Enlightenment had pretty big influence in all of Europe, and especially in Germany there was a period of secularization

It's worth noting too, that the Vatican was led like an empire throughout the earlier european history, at one time even reigning over big parts of today's Italy. And even though king's and kaisers were pro forma often crowned by the pope, his reign was often seen as a competition to european monarchs. There were various political skirmishes between the pope and monarchs and over time, the popes lost more and more of their influence and land.

tl;dr: Enlightenment, Mediatisation, pope being a political player and losing

Additional reading, if you're interested: Middle Ages, Early modern european history and on the topic of the Pope's political games History of Papacy, they cover most of what I said in detail.

[–]nzhamstar 0 points1 point ago

Nice! Thanks :)

[–]DannyBiker 1 point2 points ago

Coming from an Italian & Belgian family, I can really feel this pragmatic nuances between the North and the South of Europe, watching and reading medias.

Countries like Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Scandinavian countries, etc. also tend to plan ahead, with pessimistic perspectives in order "to be ready". Not to say that there is no management in Southern Europe of course but I feel like it's less structured.

Ex : Here in Belgium, Employers & Unions meet every year in order to adjust salaries, discuss crucial issues, exchange their views, etc. It's not fixing every problem but it prevents lots of them. And I know Germany has something similar.

Yet, it's still not enough regarding to the current crisis...

[–]diMario 0 points1 point ago

Thats funny! I am a mixed Dutch-Italian mongrel myself. What you describe about the South certainly rings a bell. I remember vacationing in Italy when I was a teenager and the group of Italian kids I was part of just drove me nuts with their endless discussions on where to go and what to do in the evening.

In the North, those that are in charge make a plan and stick to it until some newly emerging fact or adversity forces the plan to be reconsidered.

[–]mashedprotato 4 points5 points ago

Follow up question: What is it about their culture/leadership that makes them so efficient?

[–]meepstah 2 points3 points ago

The answer to this is a blend of psychological speculation and history. One might argue that they have a genetic predisposition towards organization and control; on the other hand, good leadership can organize just about anyone.

[–]barsoap 0 points1 point ago*

Consensus and Discord.

Modern Germans are usually quite individualistic and are going to stick to their point without caving in easily, but in groups that just means that stuff gets discussed until there's a consensus. Once there is a consensus, things are almost guaranteed to run smoothly.

The worst thing you can do to a German is disagree and not give a reason for it. Drives us crazy. You may even swear to bow to what the majority decides regardless of your own position, but nothing will prevent you to be seen as that wheel of the team that's going to fall off sooner or later.

[–]FartingBob 4 points5 points ago

Its partly that yes, every generation of Germans for hundreds of years have been used to a strong leaning towards industry and finance, 2 things which are very good at building a huge, yet stable economy.

One important factor is also its location. Right smack in the middle of Europe, allowing for easy international commerce and diplomacy via road, rail and sea. If other European nations wanted to transport something from one side of europe to the other it had to go through Germany (or via boat across the med). This would have made them stronger politically as so many countries needed to cooperate with Germany to get anything done.

In the past when the UK was a dominant world power it relied entirely on its sea links for trade and diplomacy. This made it easier to build an empire as seafaring was so common. But in peaceful times it means trading physical goods is a pain, which is one (of many) reasons why it has left industry behind in comparison to finance and services which can be done just as easily from an island. Germany being central Europe can do both without much trouble.

[–]Yarddogkodabear 4 points5 points ago

Germans actually took seriously the idea that "Doing things better is better than doing a shitty job for the sake of short term high profit."

It's expensive to educate Germans. It's expensive to run efficient things.

But there are long term benefits.

How did this come to be, then?

It's a good question. Why didn't other countries plan for the future? Educating their youth, building quality sustainable infrastructural and responsible debt?

A better question would be "Why don't all countries develop long term sustainable markets?"

[–]igiarmpr 2 points3 points ago

Kantian moral teachings.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

Being the center of attention in two consecutive world wars within a few decades of each other tends to have that kind of effect.

[–]fontstache 0 points1 point ago

This should be an interesting (yet with a total of over 900 pages not quite fitting for a 5yo) read for anybody interested in OP's question:

The German Genius: Europe's Third Renaissance, the Second Scientific Revolution, and the Twentieth Century

:

Peter Watson's virtuoso sweep through modern German thought and culture, from 1750 to the present day, will challenge and confound both the stereotypes the world has of Germany and those that Germany has of itself.

From the end of the Baroque era and the death of Bach to the rise of Hitler in 1933, Germany was transformed from a poor relation among Western nations into a dominant intellectual and cultural force—more creative and influential than France, Britain, Italy, Holland, and the United States. In the early decades of the twentieth century, German artists, writers, scholars, philosophers, scientists, and engineers were leading their freshly unified country to new and unimagined heights. By 1933, Germans had won more Nobel Prizes than any other nationals, and more than the British and Americans combined. Yet this remarkable genius was cut down in its prime by Adolf Hitler and his disastrous Third Reich—a brutal legacy that has overshadowed the nation's achievements ever since.

How did the Germans transform their country so as to achieve such pre-eminence? In this absorbing cultural and intellectual history, Peter Watson goes back through time to explore the origins of the German genius, and he explains how and why it flourished, how it shaped our lives, and, most important, how it continues to influence our world. As he convincingly demonstrates, it was German thinking—from Beethoven and Kant to Diesel and Nietzsche, from Goethe and Wagner to Mendel and Planck, from Hegel and Marx to Freud and Schoenberg—that was paramount in the creation of the modern West. Moreover, despite World War II, figures such as Joseph Beuys, JÜrgen Habermas, and Joseph Ratzinger ensure that the German genius still resonates intellectually today.

http://www.amazon.com/German-Genius-Renaissance-Scientific-Revolution/dp/0060760222

[–]rawrr69 4 points5 points ago

And don't forget they had a lot of the greatest minds and engineers of their time in their country or nearby in Europe... WWII sent a lot of them to the States then but originally, a ton of inventions and research done in the USA later were actually done by former German scientists or engineers. You could argue WWII drove a lot of technological advantage from Germany right into the arms of the USA.

Their technological advances at the time were also one of the reasons for their military victories and superiority and you don't want to know how much modern day research and knowledge is actually based on things the Nazis did and researched in WWII.

[–]ffurones 4 points5 points ago

And they have efficient german sex

[–]Fuqwon 10 points11 points ago

They also don't spend an absurd amount of money on their military.

[–]NULLACCOUNT 11 points12 points ago

Didn't they (and Japan) receive a lot of foreign aid immediately after the war (not to mention an increase in economic activity from all the troops stationed there) to help rebuild their country?

[–]meepstah 30 points31 points ago*

This is certainly true but it really wasn't enough to set them up to the standards they had enjoyed prior to the Great War. At some point they had to make their own recovery. WW2 was started in no small part because Germany had completely stagnated after the Great War, leaving the economy in shambles with runaway inflation and no manufacturing demand. When you look at the second war from their point of view, it was a path to survival as much as an attempt to run the world. They were given significantly more aid after they lost the second war, which by most accounts helped them to avoid running into the same situation again.

The history of Germany in the 20th century isn't going to fit in ELI5, but if you're interested, I think it's certainly a topic worth learning about. The rise of Germany under the leadership of Hitler was actually incredible. The events Hitler effected with his power were unconscionable but he did save the country from a completely economic meltdown on his way there. We can learn a lot about ourselves from what happened to that country.

[–]fencheltee 6 points7 points ago

I don't agree with this. Hitler was greatly profiting from Brüning's austerity measures. was Brüning, who was the German chancellor some time before Hitler, had to leave office before his measures showed some effect. Hitler later cashed in on the economic politics of his predecessors, e.g. the famous German Autobahn was already planned before him, the phase out of the reparation payments was already decided upon before the Machtergreifung.

In addition the nazi party forced the people to live quite frugal. There are statistics on how many percent of the people own certain kitchen appliances. In the thirties Germany lagged compared to other countries with a similar GDP per person.

[–]spacemanspiff30 3 points4 points ago

That is part of it that both countries essentially rebuilt a large portion of their infrastructure since WWII, unlike the US, that really only had the interstate system built since then, while the rest of our infrastructure has merely been maintained. Part of the reason for this though is the sheer size of the US

[–]NoobSavant 1 point2 points ago

they really are. even the language is efficient. no silent letters like the romantic languages, words are very specific in definition, articles are never ambiguous, and the verbs directly address their direct objects. speaking efficiently tends to make a person think efficiently. their chancellor, Angela Merkel was a physical chemist before taking office. most of the presidents of the USA have been lawyers or military. the closest thing we have was jefferson who was an "inventor" and hoover who was an engineer. i digress... to give an example of the efficiency of this nation, in the 90's, Germany decided to get a committee together to reform the language. they wanted to streamline things so they got rid of many outdated phrases and sayings, but also made the spelling of the words easier so that others could learn it easier.

[–]kristystianwin 0 points1 point ago

Most of our politicians are lawyers as well. Angela Merkel is a special case, because she entered politics during the fall of the DDR. While she wasn't a "bad" physicist, she wasn't great and she knew she wouldn't be able to keep up with western scientists. She knew she had to find something else, and so she chose politics.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

Evidence: Compare Heathrow airport to Frankfurt.

[–]pissed_the_fuck_off 5 points6 points ago

minimal internal strife.

My uncle lives there and he would disagree with this statement 100%. He says it's hard to get work because all the people from the east take all the work for almost nothing. Apparently there is still a lot of tension between the east and west, even today.

[–]meepstah 12 points13 points ago

Bickering over salary is different (and in fact productive) compared with what I meant by internal strife: Civil war and political uprising.

[–]pissed_the_fuck_off 5 points6 points ago

I see what you mean but it's not as rosy as you paint it to be. They are efficient because they exploit cheap labor.

[–]meepstah 2 points3 points ago

Ah, I never meant to paint it as rosy. Honestly I infer personally that the German mindset is responsible for their successes; as to where that originates we can't be sure. Nature or nurture? There was some degree of nurture to create an entire nation of organized workers, but some of it may certainly be inherited via gene rather than upbringing. They're not that much different from most of europe, honestly. If you compare the mindset of a German worker to that of, say, an average Brasilian......that's a culture shock.

[–]Gortos 11 points12 points ago

Well, I'm German and your uncle is just one of those naggers we have everywhere. There are Polish and Czech workers, but mainly because we can't find Germans for that position anymore. Unemployment is extremely low... Worst case, temporary work.

[–]batty3108 16 points17 points ago

Post WWI, the allies tried the tactic of metaphorically ass-raping Germany, setting the stage for Hitler's rise to power and the Third Reich. After WWII, the approach of rehabilitation rather than punishment was taken. France and Germany entered into a trade partnership of Coal and Steel, ensuring that neither could attack the other without losing access to valuable natural resources.

Over the last 50 years, the idea of integration to prevent war led to the establishment of the European Economic Community, and eventually the European Union. Germany has done very well out of this, because they were at the heart of the whole process.

[–]thecapitalc 17 points18 points ago

In addition to stuff others have said, their location is pretty damn good.

[–]mapgazer 3 points4 points ago

How so? How is it better than France's, Poland's, Spain's, etc?

[–]thecapitalc 1 point2 points ago

It's basically the middle of Europe. The connection from East to West. It also has access to Oceans at the North Sea.

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points ago

A point in addition to all that was said. Germany arises from the very powerful Prussian empire.

[–]schabrackentapir[!] 9 points10 points ago

There are various reasons IMO.

19th century reasons:

  1. Late unification. Really big topic. Germany became a state in a modern form relatively late, in 1871. Before, there were a whole lot of small states (and some bigger ones). They all shared some cultural, political und legal norms, but they also had great differences. This led to a huge diversity in terms of political culture, for example. Connected with this is that the different german small states also had different religions, varying between Catholicism and Protestantism.

  2. Resources. Germany had its own rich coal and metal resources, the most important raw materials of the 19th and early 20th century. This helped a lot during industrialization which started far later than in England. But we had it all here, so we had some advantages.

  3. Knowledge. Germany has some of the oldest universities in europe and has a reputation of being the "Land der Dichter und Denker" (Land of poets and thinkers). Some of the most influential thinkers of the last thousand years spoke german (Kant, Marx, Luther, to name a few. Schiller, Goethe, to name poets). This led to what I would call a thinker's circlejerk: Whoever wanted to become a great scientist had to come to germany in some times. This led to more scientists, more universities and so on. Germany had a pretty good science base in the 19th century.

  4. Immigration. Germany finds itself in the middle of europe. So whenever eastern europeans wanted to come to the west, they first came to germany. There are various waves of migration from the 5th century up til today and it's totally normal in germany nowadays to have a family name ending with "ow", "owa" or "ic", hinting towards your ancestor's heritage. This led to a huge supply of workforce when the industry needed workers, which led to fully used factory capacities and low wages. This is terrible, the workers suffered, but it made the german economy strong (however it must be said that workers didn't really earn more in other countries).

Now going to the 20th century: 1. To quote the simpsons: "This is germany. It's my best friend because.. Well, geographical convenience." After World War II, the two systems "owned" their parts of germany. The socialistic DDR was bound to the Soviet Union, whereas the Federal Republic was an Ally of the western capitalistic nations. Germany was the designated battlefield of a Cold War turning hot. Also, it was the weakest border of the minds, because people on both sides of the wall were related, spoke the same language, had the same cultural history. This is why it was so important for the western powers to make sure that the Federal Republic succeeded. A western germany struggling to fight starvation would have been a sign of weakness for the Soviet Union and would have possibly driven west german voters towards the communists. So they set up the Marshall plan, didn't look too much into how former Nazi elites continued being Democratic Elites in the 50s and basically did everything to help the german economy thrive.

  1. Humbleness. We are the country of the worst crime of all, the Holocaust. We have see just how much evil normal persons are able to do if someone finds the right (or better: wrong) words and symbols. This hasn't started right after the war, but it's been getting better since the late 1970s. We aren't thinking that we are the greatest in the world, but we're trying not to be the worst. We've given up on trying to spread the german spirit throughout the world, we just want to have our decent wealth and that's it. (Keep in mind: This is a generalization, and it's not working in a globalized world, because it's the opposite of a free market capitalism).

  2. Political balance. We have a simple left-right political climate. The two big parties were up to the 1990s the CDU (conservative) and the SPD (social democrats). Yup, no postfascists like in Italy, no socialists like in nearly every other country in europe. We were tired of extremists. This also means that there are some useful dumbasses in those parties who try to grab the votes from the extremists like in the CSU (bavarian version of the CDU with some politicians so right wing that would even be ridiculed in the GOP in the USA). Lately, there's been a change in the political climate with the rise of the Green Party (who aren't leftists, in fact a huge part of their voters are value-conservative moderate upper class people who just care for the environment and so on), the ongoing success of the PDS/Die Linke (leftists, the successor of the socialistic party SED which led the DDR) and most recently the Piratenpartei. But all the parties assembled in the parliament accept our constitution and democracy and though there are always some political showcasings, most of them work together really well.

  3. Social security. Ever since Bismarck invented to welfare state in germany (in a desperate try to get rid of the SPD, not because he was into helping workers), we've had the thought in mind that if everything goes wrong, society will at least help us stay alive. Yes, there are some problems with the finances and yes, there are in fact some people who just don't want to work (and receive about 500-600€ a month including rent. It's not that much). But we can count on societies solidarity if we fail. This leads to a peaceful society.

This sounds like I'm more than proud of my country, I'm not. There's a ton of shit that makes me want to emigrate. It's just my version of the reasons why my country has succeeded. For today, I'd say the support by the western allies was the most important factor.

tl;dr: Oh come on. Geographical reasons, resources, political culture, a little help from our friends.

[–]cynoclast 6 points7 points ago

They focused on making tangible things while the other big powers focused on making money out out of money with money by using money and lies.

[–]Tagedieb 44 points45 points ago

There are many possible reasons. Here is one thing, that might play a role:

500 years back, Protestantism started in Germany. At that time, this meant: fight the power (pope), think for yourself, etc. Out of that developed a so called protestant work ethic: we are free, and to show that our fellow men, we work our asses off. And if we don't have enough work to do, at least we do the stuff as pedantic and good as possible.

If it were not for communism, which also was "invented" mainly in Germany, Germany would be, where the USA is today: completely burned out.

Note: I just want to point out that I don't think Germany is communist or socialist in any way. But Germany was heavily influenced by some ideas of communism, which lead to the social market economy that is at work in Germany now.

Maybe it is the combination of both: Germans work hard, if they feel treated well.

[–]kutuzof 46 points47 points ago

Germany is most certainly socialist. That's not a bad word, it's something many non-americans see as positive.

[–]fromthetoolshack 66 points67 points ago*

EDIT: Hello everyone, I'm wrong. Got my terms mixed up, calm down. We're socialists and proud of it.

Original (INCORRECT) text:

Germany is most certainly not socialist. Social democratic, yes, socialist, no. The funny little thing we Germans invented is "social market economy", i.e. a form of capitalism in which the market retains most of its power and freedom while being reigned in to benefit all of society, not just the few who get lucky.

Germany being socialist would imply that all production value is socialised, that the economy is controlled by the government and everyone, in essence, works for the state. This is definitely not the case. The difference to "pure" American capitalism is that the market forces, corporations all the way to lobbyists are made responsible for their workers as well as for the "greater good". We don't charge humongous amounts of taxes, but any German employee has the right to healthcare, unemployment insurance, non-discrimination laws and so forth.

Another thing on lobbyism: Compared to the US, German lobbyists are toothless, powerless capitol-dwellers without purpose. Sure, German politics is not free from corruption. But look at the current debate about the Federal President's past connections to corporations and you'll see that we take that sort of thing quite seriously. Furthermore, again compared to the US, our unions hold as much or even more power than the owners of production value. This isn't always beneficial, but it has helped avoid some very, very nasty corporate lay-offs and company policies over the years.

Just saying, just because Marx was German doesn't mean we're all communists.

[–]marcianoskate 7 points8 points ago

Germany being socialist would imply that all production value is socialised, that the economy is controlled by the government and everyone, in essence, works for the state.

Isn't this communism? Is Sweden socialist or just a responsible capitalism?

[–]kutuzof 1 point2 points ago

Germany being socialist would imply that all production value is socialised, that the economy is controlled by the government and everyone, in essence, works for the state.

No that's communism. Socialism is when the workers have control of the means of production and that's exactly what Germany has. I don't know if you're German or not but there are many, many laws protecting workers and worker rights. There are also social health care, welfare and education systems.

I work in an office and belong to the union of office workers. I've been on strike twice, not because of my employer or even our working conditions but because of solidarity with other workers.

Also Germany mandates that companies over a certain size must pay for a betriebsrat which is made up of workers to council management / owners on worker conditions and needs.

These are all byproducts of the social democrat party which pushes steadily towards socialism. The goal of socialism however is not communism. It is merely the idea that the workers have certain rights.

[–]fromthetoolshack 1 point2 points ago

Just checked, you're right. Holy cow, my history teacher told us bullshit. And a German history at that.

[–]Andross12 0 points1 point ago

Please edit your original post, as it seems from the upvotes that a lot of people think the same way as you did.

[–]Khiva 18 points19 points ago

Socialism is one of the most abused words in the modern lexicon. It can mean everything from Soviet Russia (there's a reason it was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and not the Union of Soviet Communist Republics) to, evidently, capitalist countries with a welfare state depending on who the speaker wants to feel superior to.

[–]Tagedieb 7 points8 points ago

I never heard of any definition of socialism, that fits modern Germany. The textbook definition, you can read in the wikipedia:

Socialism is an economic system characterized by social ownership or control of the means of production and cooperative management of the economy, and a political philosophy advocating such a system. "Social ownership" may refer to any one of, or a combination of, the following: cooperative enterprises, common ownership, direct public ownership or autonomous state enterprises.

[–]Vaste 6 points7 points ago

Have you heard about democratic socialism? Germany would more accurately described by social democracy, though.

[–]Vanheim 1 point2 points ago

As an American, I really, really, REALLY, wish my fellow citizens would see how EFFECTIVE socialism is. I am all for it.

Edit: Not pure-socialism, mind you, a hybrid, like say of Sweden or France.

[–]toxic_fumes 0 points1 point ago

Nein.

[–]SynthD 7 points8 points ago

But Germany was heavily influenced by some ideas of communism, which lead to the social market economy that is at work in Germany now.

It's quite a Republican thing to at all mention modern Europe and communism, which was never further than the Baltic states. Is this a common misconception you see in others, or just from Fox News?

[–]Tagedieb 2 points3 points ago

The cold war is over, the world is not as black and white as some seem to think. Ideas are very powerful, and the idea of a powerful and respected worker class has had certainly a lot of influence on Germany, even though most people don't think that workers or the government should own the means of production.

[–]insatiable_c 2 points3 points ago

the USSR may have never stretched beyond the baltic states, but Karl Marx was German. I definitely think it's fair to say that communist ideas had some effect.

[–]FlippyWippy 4 points5 points ago*

Dont know why you are scared of calling Germany socialist or talking about it in such a way. This isn't America.

[–]Tagedieb 6 points7 points ago

I am not scared. I just keep it with the facts. Btw, I am German.

[–]DionysosX 2 points3 points ago

Seems like you adopted the foxificated buzz-word evil meaning of "socialism" into your vocabulary.

[–]Delheru 9 points10 points ago

You do realize Europeans have a definition for socialism too, and quite few of us give two shits about what Fox News or NBC or whoever want to use it for.

In Europe socialism refers to the government ownership of the means of production (ie a significant part of the economy is directly controlled by government).

I dunno if that's the Fox News meaning or not, because I don't watch Fox News because: a) I don't care, b) It doesn't show in Europe. What IS the Fox News definition anyway?

[–]DionysosX 3 points4 points ago

I was implying everything you just said.

The Fox News definition is "socialism: synonym for evil".

[–]fencheltee 2 points3 points ago

There is a huge, humongous difference between socialism and social democracy. The main point of socialism and communism is that the people/the state owns the means of productions (the factories).

Most companies in western europe are owned by their owners, not by the state.

[–]hatestosmell 0 points1 point ago

I don't think that's really what "Protestant work ethic" means. It has more to do with the Protestant concept of Predestination, where people want to become successful to prove that God has favored them and therefore they aren't going to Hell.

[–]kristystianwin 0 points1 point ago

I don't know how much Marx has influenced German market politics, but I know why we have a "Soziale Marktwirtschaft".

After WW2 a lot of people thought that socialism/communism was a valid option. It seemed a lot more fair. (Remember that in the 1930s a lot of Americans left the US for the USSR). To keep people in West Germany from leaving for East Germany, there had to be a "fair" economy in West Germany as well.

Also the British gov't at the time was socialist and they used their influence in the British Occupation Zone to keep factories gov't owned.

[–]NordicDragon117 9 points10 points ago

Germany: Lost two world wars, still better off than rest of the world. So much money, they pay other countries debts.

[–]Ergydion 3 points4 points ago

Here in Germany we have LOTS of debts. Who owns all the money

[–]Kardlonoc 3 points4 points ago

Lets say your economist and your happen to live through ww1 and ww2. You see Germany enter ww1 mostly because all the nations were kinda at the peak of a nationalistic boiling point they picked sides and Germany lost and the Germans actually accepted that.

But thats when things get weird: The allies ask Germany to pay for the war. Like a payment that won't be repaid until only just a few years ago. The french in particular are really mean about so much to the point that the whole thing is so insulting that it creates an entire generation of German resentment.

As an economist you see this unfolding and say its a bad thing: instead of economic recovery the allies are focused on isolation and exploitation. Everyone laughs at you and says its no biggie. All the while the germans are begin to decide that a better way out of debt is to just roll over all these bitches trying exploit them while having the facade of just playing along. Whats worse is the apologetic resentment economists like you have play into the hands of Germans and nobody does nothing right until the Germans roll over Poland.

And thus ww2 happens millions upon millions are dead and suddenly a bunch of economists are like, "These fucking wars are fucking up our business" and everyone agrees this time.

So instead of obstinately forcing a people to pay for war they lost america has a better idea: Rebuild these places fully and make them economic super powered allies for america.

Yep america was basically like to japan and their half of Germany, "We are going to rebuild your entire country, allow to trade with us for free and for now on we are going to protect your country with our own military so you don't need to build one. " And boy did it work if you take a look at japan and Germany today. Now one would say that not building their own military was a poor move however that was a ton of money save that provided a huge head start over dozens of other countries and eventually these places became prosperous enough to get their own forces once they were back on top.

That is to say Japan and Germany were some of the first countries to fall in line with the American capitalist dream and in the end (now) won out against the cold war and became world powers with America. Essentially they were the first stepping stones for empire america and now they have become her crown jewels.

One day this will happen to Iraq as well just you wait and watch.

[–]bracs27 0 points1 point ago

One day this will happen to Iraq as well just you wait and watch.

no, this will not happen with Iraq, Germany and Japan were powerful countries with advanced technology, that's why they were able to fight a world war in the first place.

American money helped rebuild what those countries lost in the war, a powerful industrial base. Iraq has never had that.

[–]GoTeamShake 8 points9 points ago*

In the words of Lisa Simpson, Germany is ". . .a leading economic power, because they're efficient, punctual, and have a strong work ethic."

[–]krangksh 2 points3 points ago

There are a lot of good points mentioned here, so I'll just add one that I don't see. A lot of people don't realise that Germany has the highest population of any European country (not including Russia which is also a strong world power). Next after it in population (in Europe) are France and the UK. There are eight Germans for every Grecian, for example.

[–]Ortus 2 points3 points ago

They export the machines China and India use to export stuff

[–]tlease181 2 points3 points ago

Also, very high focus on education and respect for professionals. Meritocracy in action. Of note to me is their vice chancellor, Philipp Rosler, a doctor, who just happens to be of Vietnamese decent.

[–]bluemli 2 points3 points ago

I'm sort of a Germanophile, lived there for a year during high school (ich habe solche Sehnsucht!) and just fell in love. So yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed reading the posts on here, naturally. Thanks OP.

[–]Namika 8 points9 points ago

People interested in this should read "Guns, Germs, and Steal" (or watch the movie of the same name)

It explains why countries turned out the way they did. Why is Africa poor, why did Europe surpass China, why is the US more advanced than Mexico...

All the pieces were in place ten thousand years ago. The status of the world has little to do with individuals or politics and everything to do with geograpgy, population trends, resources, and climates

[–]DreamsOfTomorrow 5 points6 points ago

That book, while valuable, has major shortcomings in the eyes of many historians.

[–]sayhar 1 point2 points ago

[–]Vanheim 1 point2 points ago

In what ways? Can you clarify?

[–]Zombie_Lenin 1 point2 points ago

He ignores cultural and economic explanations in favour of far fetched environmental determinism.

[–]Vanheim 0 points1 point ago

Thanks for the reply, I like your name, by the by.

[–]NrwhlBcnSmrt-ttck 2 points3 points ago

They make high-quality goods.

[–]MarkTraceur 3 points4 points ago

I'm going to quickly say what no-one else seems to be explaining: Motivation.

The Germans worked hard, they bounced back, they had good infrastructure, whatever. But there was a fire behind all of that--and it's very simple to see. Observe: http://mapofeurope.com/europe/europe.jpg

Notice where Germany is. Now, notice how many countries are around it. I count 8, subtract 2 for Belgium and Switzerland, plus the fact that most of the countries to the east could very easily funnel troops in from Russia or any other country. Same to the west: France was almost always allied with Britain and Portugal, so troops could always pour in from there, and just about everyone else seemed to have navies that could sink all of Germany in five minutes.

So, Germany, aside from being industrious and focused, was pretty goddamn scared all the time. The end.

EDIT: Plus, until the late 19th century, nobody inside of Germany could agree on anything long enough to defend from an invasion, so they were even more scared then.

[–]siberian 5 points6 points ago

Nice overview from stratfor

Overview

Its not that they are industrious, its WHY they are industrious that matters. Lots of this has to do where they are situated geographically and what dealing with that as a nation/ethnic state means.

[–]DionysosX 9 points10 points ago

Thanks, but that source looks and sounds like the website I created about myself when I was 12.

Here it is in readable form

And an additional part from the actual Stratfor website in pdf

[–]Another_Novelty 0 points1 point ago

This has been a really nice read, thanks.

[–]siberian 0 points1 point ago

Thanks, could not find the stratfor original. That website was full of eyeHurt.

[–]Gyrant 1 point2 points ago

The fact that their full education is paid for by the government probably doesn't hurt. That and their education system starts to specialize people into different fields very early on.

[–]Yaovi 1 point2 points ago

Germany's success does not owe as much to the "German spirit" as so many people here are suggesting. Is there in contrast things wrong with the Portuguese, Greek, Italian, or French "spirits" that have made these countries less succesfull?

A countrie's economic success has a lot more to do with the decisions of its leaders and the country's geopolical strength.

Yes, Germany was destroyed during WW2, but after the war, West Germany was a close ally of the West that helped Germany rebuild itself. West Germany got reindustrialized and the economy improved as it did in the rest of Europe throughout the 60's. Industrialization is very special to Germany as this is what differentiates it from its European neighbours. Great Britain and France benefitted from selling its products to its colonies or territories of influence. Germany in contrary had to be more competitive as it lost its colonies during WW1.

In the 1980's and the onslaught of Neo-Liberal politics and the oil crisis of 1970's, European nations turned away from industrialization. In this time, particularly Great Britain under Thatcher, lost its industries. They turned towards consumer economies, and Great Britain particularly turned towards a finance economy. The reunification of with East Germany caused issues as capital was transfered to the East, but it also supplied Germany with a large well trained workforce ready to work in industries.

Being a developed industrial nation is mainly what makes Germany rich. Now there is in some part due to the German character as labour unions in Germany accepted to keep their wages relatively low in order to remain competitive. In France (who along with Italy is Germany's main industrial rival in Europe) the working week was reduced to 35 hours in order to keep unemployment low. This made French company's less comptitive in comparison to German ones as it is more expensive to produce the same thing since workers have higher wages. Germany has a strong advantage as it has a highly skilled workforce and infrastructure that works for relatively less than other developed nations. Germany was the largest exporter in the World until China surpassed them 2 years ago, and is ahead of the US, almost 4 times its size- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

Add to this a monetary policy of the Euro which is favourable to Germany while being too high for the other economies in Europe and you can understand Germany's success. Its government has also done well to keep the deficit lower than its European neighbours by spending less on Social services.

[–]jawathehutt 1 point2 points ago

They haven't discovered reddit. Their women have not begun to pintrest. Its only a matter of time til they begin the decline into the third world that the US has begun.
On a serious note though, based on my personal experiences studying abroad in Hessen, they seem to be very reliant on a house of cards like bureaucracy that would collapse terribly in a lot of other places. But since Germans seem very dedicated to doing their best, its more of a house of obsidian in minecraft. Obviously I'm not an expert in this, but this is just sorta what my experiences were interacting with the city, university and Dbahn bureaucracy

[–]t800rad 1 point2 points ago

Everything runs like fuckin' clockwork. Also beer.

[–]joomlu 1 point2 points ago

ELIT? Explain Like I'm Ten?

[–]Savrola 0 points1 point ago

Explain like I'm thirty-five.

[–]cccjfs 1 point2 points ago

Because they are hard workers. Very industrious, punctual and productive. Strong ethics makes laziness and excuses in general to be frowned upon in Germany.

[–]chemistry_teacher 1 point2 points ago

I believe the sociologist would first refer to Max Weber's Protestant work ethic to explain the German mindset. I cannot give much on this since my own sociological understanding is rather limited, but perhaps our fellow redditors can explain the strengths and weaknesses of this theory in greater detail.

[–]ILikeOregano 6 points7 points ago

That would be a poorly-informed sociologist, in the face of some the wealthiest states in Germany, which happen to be predominantly Catholic!

[–]chemistry_teacher 1 point2 points ago

There is much more to it than population distribution. Most of the Philippines is populated by Filipinos (of Malay-based descent), yet most of the wealth is concentrated among the Chinese residents there. Similar results are found in a geographical study of Malaysia. Iraq was only recently led by a Sunni minority. Indeed, even historical records will often show of nations/societies where the minority population had the majority of the influence in economic affairs.

[–]ILikeOregano 1 point2 points ago

Indeed there is, but are you sure that "protestant work ethic" isn't just code for "non-Mediterranean work ethic"? I've always thought the phrase is simply way of taking a racial stereotype and disguising it as a religious one. What, strictly, does this ethos have to do with protestantism?

[–]blaarfengaar 1 point2 points ago

The Protestant Work Ethic is based off of Calvinism, the central doctrine of which is predestination (also called predetermination).

Basically, according to John Calvin and his followers, God decided your eternal fate after life before you were born, and nothing you do in life can change that. Supposedly those chosen to reside in heaven for all time (the "Visible Saints") were distinguishable by their wealth, appearance, ect, which basically meant that people that worked hard enough to become wealthy were probably predestined for heaven. (which I've always thought was just a roundabout way of making you not go on a murderous raping spree since that wouldn't affect your fate supposedly)

[–]DogBotherer 1 point2 points ago

The idea (not claiming it as valid) is that a particular "brand" of Protestantism - Calvinism - is focussed on validating one's dedication to God by earthly achievements. You show yourself worthy by working hard and becoming successful.

[–]kodemage 2 points3 points ago

If I had to guess I'd say Martin Luther.

[–]Derpabo 1 point2 points ago

All these comments make me happy i'm learning German.

[–]fencheltee 1 point2 points ago

During WWII the infrastructure in Germany was targeted by the enemy, not the factories itself, e.g. bridges and train rails were bombed.

So after the war the Germans didn't need to build everything again, but just the bridges and train rails. Of course this is a simplification, but there are a couple of things like this that can explain fast economic recovery of Western Germany after WWII.

[–]feeblmynd 0 points1 point ago

They still manage to pull this off despite huge social programs, student financial aid and parenting grants, while unions control the job force, closing all stores at 5 and on weekends. We talk about this all the time in my German class, and how they still manage to not only survive but THRIVE stumps us.

[–]JarateIsAPissJar 0 points1 point ago

The Allied Powers actually went in and helped with the rebuilding of Germany after WWII.

[–]El_Biffo 1 point2 points ago

I feel that Germany has managed a healthy synthesis between free market capitalism and the socialist tendencies of the East German regime prior to the fall of the Berlin Wall. Germany is a nation of manufacturers... perhaps second to none, and the great merger of East and West occurred within it's borders.

They have done this despite losing 2 World Wars by being pragmatists and not aligning themselves with any particular ideology.

I guess my explanation is vague but I do think it valid.

[–]DrQuailMan 0 points1 point ago

because the germans always make good stuff

[–]knupauger 0 points1 point ago

On important key element of the current and ongoing German success are family run businesses, which don't follow and are not ruled by fast moving stock market trends but by long-term export-orientated strategies, that make many German companies market leaders, usually on minor markets one might not think about in world that it dominated by Apples and Samsung, but which guarantee a constant growth, that can resist market crises.

[–]madmaxola 0 points1 point ago

Sincerity, Humility, Industriousness, Obedience, Toughness

Sense of Order, Pflichtbewusstsein (Sense of Duty), Self denial, Austerity

Bravery without sniveling („Lerne leiden ohne zu klagen“ Learn to suffer without moaning!)

Loyalty, Incorruptibility, Subordination

Reliability, Punctuality