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[–]greenfox38 20 points21 points ago

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I haven't met any Chinese speakers that confuse /l/ and /r/ in English, perhaps because Mandarin has both an /l/ and an /r/ (although the Chinese /r/ isn't quite the same as the English /r/.) If I remember correctly (from Learner English by Michael Swan), certain Southern Chinese dialects don't actually make this distinction, so maybe it's these speakers that tend to mix up /l/ and /r/?

[–]finalparticles 18 points19 points ago*

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This. And "Chinese" describes at least 9 different language/dialect families that can be quite different from one other.

I do not know any native standard Mandarin speakers who have a problem with confusing /l/ and /r/ at all. In fact most pronounce the /r/ significantly better than other East Asians. Mandarin has both [ɹ] (more in syllable-final positional) and [ɻ] (more in syllable-initial position) in their inventory -- the latter is more retroflex (as Kinbensha has explained), otherwise they don't sound that different (to most native English speakers anyways).

It is the native speakers of Southern Chinese langauges that usually have problems pronouncing /r/. All the major prestige dialects of Southern China -- Shanghainese, Hokkien dialects, Cantonese, Hakka -- do not have an /r/ initial.

Historically most Chinese emigrants have been from southern coastal China -- many established Chinese communities around the world spoke, and still speak, these languages as their mother tongue. It is only relatively recently that the majority of Chinese emigrants are native Mandarin speakers now, so you can easily still meet a lot of people of Han Chinese ethnic background who are not native Mandarin speakers, and they are the ones mixing up consonantal /r/ and /l/, usually pronouncing /r/ as [l] or something more like [l].

[–]TaylorPink 19 points20 points ago

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Usually it's the Japanese who mix up R and L because they combined the two basically. Maybe OP is racist.

[–]shantastik 8 points9 points ago

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This confusion ( /l/ being an allophone of the phoneme /r/ ) is the main culprit, but it's also important to note that they are both alveolar approximants (the /l/ being an alveolar lateral approximant) so the sound is made in the same place/manner of articulation, the only difference being that /l/ shoves the airflow around the tongue, while the /r/ lets the air come down the middle. If one's native language wouldn't make this distinction, it'd be a very subtle difference to pick up on and produce.

[–]anagrammatron 1 point2 points ago

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I know a Mandarin teacher of southern origin who sometimes mixes them up. She can distinguish them fine, but not reliably reproduce evey time.

[–]Yofi 1 point2 points ago

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A related question I have is why do many Mandarin speakers have a hard time pronouncing the "r" sound naturally at the end of words in American English? Like a lot of them will say "ca" instead of "car" or whatever. If they have no problem saying -儿, why can't they just apply that to -r?

[–]kosmotron 2 points3 points ago

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It is not uncommon for languages to have positionally restricted phonemes. If you're a native speaker of English, the situation you describe is analogous to pronouncing /ŋ/ ("ng" sound) at the beginning of a word. You can easily say "sing" — now apply that "ng" sound to "ngoma". It's not natural or easy to do. In many other languages, /ŋ/ commonly occurs at the beginnings of syllables. But not English.

[–]themanifold 1 point2 points ago

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Only people from Beijing put 儿 at the end of words. Most Chinese actually dislike that about the Beijing accent (especially outside China).

[–]Yofi 0 points1 point ago

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I've only taken one year of Mandarin, so I'm no expert, but aren't there lots of words that objectively end in 儿 no matter where you're from? e.g. 那儿,这儿,玩儿? I was under the impression that people from Beijing would add the 儿 sound other places beyond this but that all standard Mandarin speakers had the sound.

[–]themanifold 1 point2 points ago

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All the ones you just wrote are stereotypically Beijing. Most chinese would say 那里,这里,玩 respectively (nali, zheli, wan). My girlfriend from Shanghai was always bothered when I would speak to her with the Beijing accent, and when I would use these words in particular (they are some of the first ones you learn, after all). There may be some words which use the -er and are common among most Mandarin speakers, but I am fairly sure that using the ones you listed would mark you as having studied Beijing's Chinese.

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points ago

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I've honestly never encountered this with Chinese speakers. Koreans and Japanese however, definitely.

In Korean, you have [r] as a phoneme and /l/ as an allophone - it only shows up in certain positions. When they learn engrish, they are still using their L1 (Primary) phonological rule. Hence the confusion.

Japanese on the other hand, is probably just from lack of an [l] in general.

[–]Kinbensha 10 points11 points ago

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I mean, technically Japanese lacks [ɹ] and [l]. The closest thing they have is a retroflex tap [ɽ], and they try to make due.

And you're correct about Korean. The /ɾ/ phoneme is realized as [l] ~ [ɭ] in coda position.

[–]trua 6 points7 points ago

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English-as-second-language speaker here. I always thought the phrase was "make do". Have I been wrong all these years? :o

[–]fakealgore 8 points9 points ago

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[–]rusoved 5 points6 points ago

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I always thought the Japanese tap was alveolar, not retroflex. Isn't it?

[–]themanifold 2 points3 points ago

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Kinbensha gave a very detailed explanation, but basically the answer is that it is usually alveolar, but may become retroflex based on the sounds surrounding it and/or where the speaker is from.

[–]Kinbensha 2 points3 points ago

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Hmm. According to Wikipedia, it's complex, and it may vary not only by speaker, but also by the following vowel. I'm not sure if this is from perception experiments by native English speakers, or if it reflects a change in place of articulation, but it appears that the "base" phoneme may be postalveolar and there's also this:

/ɽ/ is an apical postalveolar flap undefined for laterality. That is, it is specified as neither a central nor a lateral flap, but may vary between the two. It is similar to the Korean r. To an English speaker's ears, its pronunciation varies between a flapped d ([ɾ], as in American English buddy) and a flapped l [ɺ], sounding most like d before /i/ and /j/ About this sound listen (help·info), most like l before /o/ About this sound listen (help·info), and most like a retroflex flap [ɽ] before /a/.

Edit: It's sad, because I don't really care how it sounds to a "an English speaker's ears." I want to know, phonetically, what it is in the most detail possible.

[–]stroopsaidwhat 6 points7 points ago

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From what I understand, in Japanese, it is due to the use of a single phoneme that is a mixture of r and l sounds in English. Native speakers will have grown up never knowing the difference from r and l and their brains will reflect that by not being able to percieve the difference nor produce the difference. Perhaps with enough specific training that could be adjusted.

[–]Kinbensha 2 points3 points ago

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The phoneme you're describing is most often described as a retroflex tap [ɽ]. It is most certainly not a mix of [l] and [ɹ]. [l] and [ɹ] are more similar to each other than either of them are to [ɽ]. The Japanese retroflex tap is more similar to the Korean or Spanish alveolar tap [ɾ], which is more or less how American English speakers pronounce /t/ and /d/ in certain phonetic environments such as in <water>.

Everything else though, you're right.

[–]BlindAngel 0 points1 point ago

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I've seen japanes people do the french r [ʁ]. So i guess that with practice probably anybody can

[–]Kinbensha 7 points8 points ago

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With practice, anyone lacking a physical abnormality can make any sound in human language.

[–]TimofeyPnin 1 point2 points ago

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I'm not sure why this keeps having to be said, but I thank you for saying it again.

[–]exasperation 5 points6 points ago

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When you learn a language (such as your native language), you learn to map a range of variant sounds to what's known as a phoneme, a sort of abstract notion of a specific sound, phonemes make up words.

An English speaker will interpret [pʰ] and [p] as the same phoneme, /p/. The sound [ɾ] does not occur initially in any English dialect I'm aware of. It does occur intermediary as a reduction of t or d in some American English dialects, such as <butter> /bʌɾɚ/ but this is restricted to the middle of words.

Personally when I hear [ɾ] at the start of a word, it sounds a lot like like /l/.

American English speakers tend to hear French /e/ as /eɪ/ since we don't have /e/ as a standalone phoneme. We turn around and pronounce French words like that as well. It takes a long, long time to unlearn your native language's mapping.

Your brain basically "shifts" each phone it hears to the "nearest match" phoneme. That mapping is different from language to language. The areas where these mappings conflict is where difficulty in distinguishing certain sounds either in recognition or production comes from.

[–]finalparticles 6 points7 points ago*

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Responding to your edit -- lack of distinction is usually what causes one to mix them up. That's why everyone is mentioning it.

Another problem is you keep speaking of Chinese people as though they all have the same mother tongue. As already mentioned by several people, there are many Chinese languages and dialects, and many of them are mutually unintelligible. Not everyone who comes from China speak standard Mandarin as their native language. Those who do are still likely to have regional variations (I'm sure you're aware how big China is -- let alone China, look at the Netherlands and Germany and look at how much dialectal variety there already is). There are also a lot of people from China who learned Mandarin as a second language, and their native language often influences their Mandarin as well.

As for German and Dutch Rs (particularly the uvular ones, the ones you make at the back of your throat), they indeed sound quite different from the English R. And it is definitely the case that most Chinese languages don't have those sounds, and may have trouble identifying what sound it should be (usually choosing the sound in their native language that sounds the closest -- I'm not sure that in this case the closest sound is necessarily an L, it may depend on the language/dialect).

If you're referring to the alveolar flapped or trilled Rs instead (the ones you make by tapping or vibrating the tip of your tongue against the roof of your mouth near the teeth), which I see exists in Dutch and German, depending on the dialect/variety -- that also does not exist in most Chinese languages. This one indeed sounds more like an L (the tongue touches pretty much the same area behind your teeth for both sounds). Many European languages have these sounds. Sometimes the tapped R sounds like a D to speakers who don't have the sound in their native tongue.

So at least for the trilled R, it's true most Chinese speakers (of most major Chinese languages) may mix it up with the L. The tapped R as well. Perhaps the other R sounds too, but I think less likely unless they are influenced by the spelling of the written language as well, which I think is a very plausible scenario. Remember there are many different kinds of sounds represented by the letter "r" in European languages (as reviewed above).

As for the English R that most people have been talking about here, Mandarin speakers usually have no problem with it, but speakers of most Southern Chinese languages do.

[–]TimofeyPnin 4 points5 points ago

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I speak Mandarin and know a lot of native Chinese speakers who speak English as a second language, none of whom mix Ls and Rs in English.

What Chinese speakers are you interacting with? Which of the Chinese languages is/are their native languages, or where in China are they from?

[–]bonzinip 2 points3 points ago

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Same reason while most non-native English speaker cannot reproduce the 15-20 vowels that English has. "l" and "r" are allophones in many languages from the Far East.

[–]fullerenedream -1 points0 points ago

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And, I take it, why Americans think Canadians say "aboot".

[–]GrammarSocialistsociolinguistics 4 points5 points ago*

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Chinese has both L and R sounds (a minimal pair would be lan2se4 (blue) and ran2hou4 (afterwards). I'm not sure about other Asian languages, but a Chinese speaker can pronounce both as distinct sounds.

edit: When I wrote "Chinese" I really only was referring to Mandarin. I don't have experience with the phonetics of any other dialects and I suggest you refer to the posts upstream of mine for more details.

[–]kermityfrog 0 points1 point ago

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The second example in Mandarin has an r that is halfway between an 'r' and a 'y'

[–]Oswyt3hMihtig 2 points3 points ago

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Does this phenomenon have a name? I think it should be called lotacism.

[–]paolog 1 point2 points ago

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In case you are wondering what this is called, it's "lallation".

[–]mysticrudnincomputational linguistics 0 points1 point ago

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Have you studied a foreign language? Presumably one you studied had a sound new to you, so you approximated as necessary...

It also doesn't help that within English, there are different l sounds and different amounts of how rhotic r sounds are, both within and between speakers.

[–]nefffffffffff -1 points0 points ago

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because L and R are remarkably similar sounds. Without a lifetime of being trained to hear and produce the difference they can sound like the same thing.

In many asian languages in particular, the two sounds are considered to be the same phoneme varying slightly in different phonetic environments. We do this in English with different letters, too. Pay attention to the "L" sound and how your mouth makes it in the word "Leaf" and then the word "Feel." Notice the difference? Now try to imagine learning a language where those were two different letters.

[–]Fauropitotto 3 points4 points ago

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In many asian languages in particular,

Exactly which ones might I ask?

[–]nefffffffffff 0 points1 point ago

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I don't have any sources to cite so I may be wrong, but I know this is true in Japanese, and I'm pretty sure it's true in Korean and some 'dialects' of Chinese as well. There are probably still others in SE Asia.

[–]Fauropitotto -1 points0 points ago*

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I can tell you for a fact (chinese born and raised girlfriend, personal experience a few months in taiwan), that L and R are very distinct sounds in mandarin, cantonese, and 3 or 4 other major dialects in southern china. She's never screwed them up, and I have no idea what information OP was going off of, or if he some how confused Japanese with Chinese.

I'll have to go find more information about it later

[–]nefffffffffff 0 points1 point ago

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oh ok

[–]hsfrey 0 points1 point ago

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I don't know why you say that R and L are similar!

R is made way back in the throat, and L is made way in the front of the mouth.

Admittedly, there is a huge range of R sounds, but in most English dialects they are quite distinct.

[–]nefffffffffff 0 points1 point ago

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Actually they are almost exactly the same sound. They are both alveolar approximants, L is just lateralized. The sound on both comes from the same spot: your voicebox.

[–]stank345 -1 points0 points ago

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I know next to nothing about the languages in question, but part of the answer is that both sounds are phonetically related as liquids.

As an example, the Brazilian comic book character Cebolinha famously replaces his r's with l's. I know from personal experience that it's not uncommon for kids to have trouble producing rhotics, though you'll have to get a phonetician to tell you why exactly they're so hard to articulate.