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What do you think about this take on anxiety by Kierkegaard? (self.philosophy)
submitted 4 months ago by LeviTyson
“Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom.” ― Søren Kierkegaard
[–]Submedium 49 points50 points51 points 4 months ago
I have read somewhere else, (if I remember correctly it's from Marcel Gauchet) that Law or "Good and Evil" is the necessary foundation for a sense of self.
In "The concept of Anxiety", Kierkegaard goes back to the scene in the Garden of Eden and says that Adam became a subjective, self-conscious being at the moment God told him not to eat of the fruit. For God to have to tell him not to do something came the realization that in fact, he had the freedom to disobey, which was the first time he experienced anxiety, a vertigo of liberty.
[–]lliebler 11 points12 points13 points 4 months ago
Indeed. Well put. I like the phrase vertigo of liberty because any choice that gives us freedom reminds us of the consistent choice we are making to continue to live, and also that we have the choice not to.
[–]phronesis 13 points14 points15 points 4 months ago
Kiekegaard was supremely interested in the concept of the self. For him, the self is defined and perpetuated through the constant demonstration of will, and what he calls "absolutely relating oneself to the absolute." What he means here is that one sees oneself not as a being driven by appetitive desires, not simply as a being whose duty is to express the universals, but one in whom choice and potentiality are present. In fact, the self IS the constant striving for actuality - the key being striving (and never achieving). And so, one is given a moment in which a decision to act (and the important part here is that the choice is conscious), and when the decision is made, he actualizes for the moment, and then continues on to the next potential moment. Thus, it is very possible to exist without being a self.
Anxiety arises in Kierkegaard's work in which the individual is in absolute relation to the absolute (above the universal, on the way to subjective selfhood). There are multiple levels of anxiety in his works (Sickness Unto Death and Concept of Anxiety, most notably), but they all stem from the point at which a decision is to be made and yet has not yet been made.
Obviously there is a lot more depth to his ideas here, but that's what I can remember of those two works from my graduate seminar. My focus was much more on Philosophical Fragments, so please let me know if I have erred.
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 4 months ago
Sounds good. I think it might be closer to the truth to say, "Anxiety is the dizziness from preoccupation/uneasiness with the unknown." I think it's kind of the same thing, if you look at freedom as the possibility of an unknown future. If you're defining freedom that way, then I still think it's closer to say that "Anxiety is the dizziness from preoccupation/uneasiness with freedom."
[–]dirtmcgurk 2 points3 points4 points 4 months ago
Especially if you consider the options are simply beyond immediate comprehension and nowhere near infinite, and the feeling itself comes from the burden of choosing between unknowns while carrying the weight of the (false) idea of being capable of making any decision a priori in such a situation.
[–]rainbow_fairy 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
The "choices" could very well be infinite, as long as they exist on a continuous spectrum. I think Hameroff & Penrose's theory of Orch-OR (space-time selection in the brains microtubules) gives a concrete example of how this could work in a way that might reasonably be referred to as giving rise to free will (although the empirical results are dubious at best so far).
[–]dirtmcgurk 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago*
That would conflict with every sociological and psychological study; If anyone can make any choice at any time so there's no reason to try and predict them. Then you can cascade that to any other field involving human behavior. This makes no sense given that many of our predictions do work.
I can see this as more of a case for soft determinism, but even that relies on the idea that there is no determinable motivational weight to one direction or the other.
Edit: Can I get some refutation to show me why you may disagree?
Edit 2: One problem I have with the paper, and I've only read half so far, is that it starts by begging the question in its 5 tenets. It says, granted these 5 things exist as we have defined them, blahblah. I reject all problems but #1 and #3, and would claim that they are equivocal problems, as understanding subjective experience would solve #3.
No one is arguing that human choices are entirely random. If Orch-OR was correct, that would mean that there was a non-computational component to consciousness (as Penrose argues), but I'm not sure you can assume that this mechanism is completely arbitrary even if it can't be modeled as a mathematical algorithm. And anyway, most of the information processing in the brain would still be based on classically deterministic principles.
I'm not the one who downvoted you, and I try to maintain an agnostic stance on this whole issue. I won't say I believe in Orch-OR specifically (especially since the predictions don't really fit too well with the empirical results), but I also think it's a little soon to throw out any possibility of there being some neural mechanisms that aren't entirely deterministic, when there are still giant holes in our understanding of neuroscience.
[–]dirtmcgurk 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago
I have so many discussions concerning free will where the disagreement is a matter of linguistic misunderstanding. In my daily life, I'm perturbed by the use of the idea of free will to denote a priori decisions and justify actions or policies based around this idea. In other words, people do argue that human choices are completely random in the sense of being ultimately liberated from any influencing factors. So, when I argue against free will, I am arguing against that concept. Anything beyond that is, as you say, just a matter of if there is a non-computational component and how influential that component is. These are ideas on which we must remain agnostic at this time (although agnosticism is generally a good idea regardless).
I agree with you 100%, but due to the circumstances I felt unable to grant you the benefit of the doubt. Sorry about that, and I'm working on learning better ways to communicate about these rather difficult topics. I appreciate your existence.
[–]lliebler 6 points7 points8 points 4 months ago
Well, you need a bit more context to really get at this. This comes from The Concept of Anxiety where he wrote:
Anxiety may be compared with dizziness. He whose eye happens to look down into the yawning abyss becomes dizzy. But what is the reason for this? It is just as much in his own eye as in the abyss, for suppose he had not looked down. Hence, anxiety is the dizziness of freedom, which emerges when the spirit wants to posit the synthesis and freedom looks down into its own possibility, laying hold of finiteness to support itself. Freedom succumbs to dizziness. Further than this, psychology cannot and will not go. In that very moment everything is changed, and freedom, when it again rises, sees that it is guilty. Between these two moments lies the leap, which no science has explained and which no science can explain. He who becomes guilty in anxiety becomes as ambiguously guilty as it is possible to become.
So, what he is really saying here is not the pithy statement that anxiety is engendered from freedom. That's just his position leading to the conclusion that the freedom to kill oneself (looking into a yawning abyss insinuates the ultimate freedom) is that basis for all other freedoms, and that it cannot support itself when freedom itself comes to this realization. Our psychology cannot grasp such freedom, so it gets caught in a feedback loop of guilt and anxiety. Because we don't know where the guilt comes from, it is ambiguous and difficult to deal with.
You might extrapolate this to other anxieties and fears, but I think what he is saying here is that anxiety itself is the mechanism that buffers our inability to cope with the understanding that we have an ultimate freedom to destroy ourselves.
[–]heisgone 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago
Alan Watts has an interesting take on that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzhhmCXbYno
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago
I like it. I see it as Kierkegaard describing a heightened sense of awareness, stripped bare, so that the rawness of life is visible.
I'm drawing on Heidegger here, but only because I believe it to be true.
[–]LeviTyson[S] 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago
I'm not sure how I Feel about it, but I am leaning towards it being an accurate statement.
[–]TheBaconMenace 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
Agreed.
[–]winterorange 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
This certainly explains some cases of it...but perhaps not all.
[–]rgliszin 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
by 'anxiety' he meant existential dread right? the horrific burden of responsibility laden on those making conscious, 'free' choices?
[–]pstuart 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
I think of it as the conflict between head and heart; the heart knows what to be true and the head tries to avoid the truths it does not like.
[–]NihiloZero 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
Kierkegaard has more right than most to have been a bit flippant at times.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
I am a bit of a theologian. To me, anxiety is that feeling of a bad memory left uncorrected. Or a future matter that God's plan require us to attend, but society or own fear/pride keeps us from pursuing.
[–]kaleidoughscope 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
Indeed.
[–]20twenty20 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
Freud called anxiety the return of the repressed, and this too seems to have some truth. Is there a way to reconcile this idea with Kierkegaard's, or can we say it's two different forms of anxiety?
[–]ravia 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
Is there an alternative to anxiety, or rather a parallel experience, a kind if "positive anxiety"?
[–]phileconomicus 1 point2 points3 points 4 months ago
A pithy statement of existentialism?
It only sounds pithy because it's missing context.
[–]sediment 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
We're taking the hobbits to Kirkegaard!
[–]Kierkaguardian 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
My master, Kierkegaard the Great, bids thee welcome. Is there any in this rout with authority to treat with me~?
[–]7yler 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
Clearly the only cure for anxiety is to do away with freedom all together. No wonder the man was so popular with dictators, despots, and autocrats.
[–]Reasonous92 -3 points-2 points-1 points 4 months ago*
I don't think that is accurate at all. Feelings developed through evolution, anxiety exists to warn you of danger.
If you are walking down a dark alley alone or you walk too close to a cliff edge, you feel anxiety and we all know why. However, what I think most people have trouble with is "generalized anxiety" or feelings of chronic anxiety. The looming question then becomes, if people are meant to feel anxiety when they are in danger then why do they feel it in situations where a sound mind would remain calm?
I think this question is a huge issue because it leads, inevitably, back to the formative years of the child's upbringing and what factors could have possibly wired the brain in such a way as to feel inappropriate anxiety. If you are interested in how adverse or abusive early childhood experiences leads to trauma and then psychological dysfunction (like chronic anxiety) check out "The Bomb in the Brain" series at fdrurl.com/bib, there is tons of research to support such a notion.
[–]Either-Or 9 points10 points11 points 4 months ago
Fear warns you of danger. Fear has an object while anxiety has none. Anxiety arises both on a "normal" level (i.e., in connection with choices that have to be made, exercising one's freedom and assuming responsibility) and on every level up until it gets "pathological," which is what you're talking about, but there's still a difference between fear (of X) and anxiety (in the face of --).
[–]Lonelobo -1 points0 points1 point 4 months ago
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of Weltschmerz?
[–]AnonymousMinarchist -1 points0 points1 point 4 months ago
I am a pubescent noob to philosophy, but I have to say that I disagree with it. Firstly, the statement is ambiguous because freedom can be defined in multiple ways, and some would argue that free will does not exist due to the fact that everything is cause-and-effect, thereby dening the existance of "freedom".
Anxiety is definately a survival mechanism. It exists in enviorenments where one is not "free". The statement is innacurate.
[–]fwaht -8 points-7 points-6 points 4 months ago
You have a poor epistemology if you're turning to philosophy in an area now dominated by science.
[–]TheBaconMenace -2 points-1 points0 points 4 months ago
You have a poor epistemology if you're considering an area to be dominated by science.
[–]fwaht 0 points1 point2 points 4 months ago
What exactly are you attempting to say? You honestly think anxiety, a condition of homo sapiens, isn't epistemically dominated by a process that understands nature (science) relative to a process that's analytic (philosophy)? How can you even possibly justify that belief.
Ah, that is a long conversation, my friend. I must direct you to a long lineage of philosophers who appear to have poked quite a number of dramatic holes in the seemingly iron wall of scientism. As Husserl noticed, the crisis of the sciences is that it has no way to ground itself; science, if it is to be anything, will get nowhere beyond faith claims if it refuses a philosophical foundation.
Mostly I'm just bored with scientific fundamentalism.
Holy shit, now I find that you're not only profoundly ignorant but profoundly stupid, as well.
You got me.
No, you got yourself, right?! I mean, I'm just a construction of the intersubjective entfremdung/entäusserung being produced by your vorstellung through idealistic distortions of your phenomological strata. The one of us should go smoke some fat bluntz with Alan Watt through the perceptory fields of the cosmic consciousness, how bout it bro-me?
Nah, that sounds silly. I suggest we ruminate on the majesty of the cosmos for an hour or two until we realize that we are simply quarks and leptons engaging other quarks and leptons until the natural processes of the world reconfigure our quarks and leptons into food for simple creatures made of quarks and leptons. At that point, we can begin ignoring our meaninglessness by continuing to find funding for our hopefully repeatable experiments.
[–]mindaslight -1 points0 points1 point 4 months ago
What else would it be dominated by? I think science has a better track record in uncovering the nature of reality than philosophy.
[–]TheBaconMenace -1 points0 points1 point 4 months ago
I suppose that would be a point of contention. I wouldn't call that self-evident by any means.
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[–]Submedium 49 points50 points51 points ago
[–]lliebler 11 points12 points13 points ago
[–]phronesis 13 points14 points15 points ago
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points ago
[–]dirtmcgurk 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]rainbow_fairy 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]dirtmcgurk 0 points1 point2 points ago*
[–]rainbow_fairy 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]dirtmcgurk 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]lliebler 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]heisgone 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]LeviTyson[S] 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]TheBaconMenace 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]winterorange 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]rgliszin 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]pstuart 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]NihiloZero 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]kaleidoughscope 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]20twenty20 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]ravia 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]phileconomicus 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]lliebler 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]sediment 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Kierkaguardian 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]7yler 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Reasonous92 -3 points-2 points-1 points ago*
[–]Either-Or 9 points10 points11 points ago
[–]Lonelobo -1 points0 points1 point ago
[–]AnonymousMinarchist -1 points0 points1 point ago