/r/writing, reddit and moderation: call for mods, witch hunts and why violentacrez was added as a moderator.

Kattastrophe · 3 months

What this subreddit is for needs to be stated more clearly. I've never posted anything here because I'm not sure what would be acceptable. According to the sidebar, I should be able to post a portion of my writing for critique, but the people here don't seem to want that. So, I guess I should post articles about writing. That seems... silly to me. To talk and never do or show. Anyway, the point is, it needs to be made clear what is an acceptable post and what isn't.
The problem with critique posts is that once it's posted, it's out there. It's on the internet for everyone to see. That would need to be made clear. Users should not post anything they intend to publish. If we end up allowing critique, there should be a warning in the sidebar to let everyone know they ought to be careful with what they post. Maybe just put a sample of their work to find their general problem areas.
I don't actually have a four yet. Mostly, we just need to figure out the direction this subreddit is going to take. Then there can be more talk on how to do it and proposals.

StupidDogCoffee · 3 months

The way I see it, this community is in need of three positions:

1: Moderator: A person whose job it is to clean out the spam filter, delete unwanted posts and deal with trouble. Typical moderator duties. It should be someone who is on every single day, and has time to go about the mundane tasks of moderating. Should not be a controversial person, but someone levelheaded and good at conflict management, and someone whom the members here would respect.

2: Community Manager: A person whose duty it is to gauge the desires of the community and direct the sub to reflect the community's desires. This person would help establish rules, determine what is in the sidebar, and organize community activity such as contests and so forth. All of these things should be done with an ear to the wants and needs of the community. This person needs to be someone whom the community respects, not necessarily as a great writer, but as someone who is involved in the community. Needs 'people person' skills and the ability to gauge the desires of the sub, as well as the ability and desire to organize events such as writing contests and so forth.

3: Style Director: A person whose job it is to shape the look and feel of the subreddit. Should be familiar with CSS stylesheets to shape the basic look and feel of the reddit, and have an eye for design to implement things like award flair for winners of contests and so forth. This would be a more technical position, and requires less involvement in the community than the others. This position could be filled by an outsider, so long as they enjoyed doing it and were willing to work with the other mods. The position could also be eliminated if either of the other mods had experience with CSS and an eye for design.

With three strong people like this working together, and with the community, I think this sub could truly become something great.

What say you?

aglet · 3 months

I think the anger at VA being added as a mod arose from the fact that he's not an active member of this sub, and yet was placed in that position over someone who was passionate and driven to make this sub a better place (karlgraves), and even over someone who at least has some celebrity around here (throwaway_writer). ANY mod you placed in that situation would have been up against resistance, and you chose one of the most controversial people you could have in VA on top of that.

This sub has gotten cranky and divisive lately anyway between the self-pub and the traditional pub camps, the inconsistencies over whether links to one's own work is encouraged here or not, general ongoing snootiness... boom, you have a flash mob on your hands.

As for suggestions... I have none. This sub has been struggling for quite a while, and I don't think adding a mod is going to fix it; there are too many different ideas about the direction it should head. Which is fine, because there's enough people subscribed to split into subreddits. And maybe it's time for that.

TwistTurtle · 3 months

"What he has, though, is experience moderating several large subreddits, including /r/funny, which, to my knowledge, has not degenerated into a lawless hellhole full of horrible people."

You don't spend that much time in the comments section of /r/funny, do you...

Marty_Stu · 3 months

I'll throw my cents/hats/pitchforks in here

I've been on /r/writing for a while now, and from what I've seen, the blog/spam clogging up has gone on for time untold.

How did this place get to 30,000 subscribers and not have more than one mod, and why has there never been an FAQ or in-depth guidelines.

I have nothing against you IW, it's just that this place has been crying out for someone to take the reins whose passionate about the community and willing to pitch their time in to help it grow.

/r/write for example has been up a few days and it has an FAQ and guidelines because the people involved want to make it better.

Obviously, this isn't all on you, /r/writing has been around for a while, I'm just not sure why we let it be like this for so long without trying to do anything.

Like those outback towns in the old-west that fail to develop and grow, a kind of e-lawlessness took hold and so far, hasn't been rectified.

karlgrave · 3 months

I’ll keep this brief, I’ve only got enough in me for one megapost of doom a day.

Governing r/writing

As the admins have made clear, the original mod of subreddits are free to do as they please with them. As such, illuminatedwax is free to govern r/write as he sees fit.

For my part, I think it is safe to say that this situation was not handled in an ideal fashion. But the blame should not be placed squarely on any one party. Problems and conflicts do not arise without there being at least two sides. Perhaps I could have conducted my behavior in a different fashion that would not have led to the current cacophony of complaints.

However, I believe that my conduct (particularly developing www.redditauthors.com) was merely the spark that lit some very dry kindling; the straw that broke the camels back; etc. A large and vocal potion of r/writing wanted something done about the state of the sub - I just happened to be “the right man in the wrong place.”

A Fresh Start

As I think is clear by the 1000+ migration of new subscribers there is a desire to move away from the current situation in r/writing and begin with a clean slate. Between my real life, redditauthors.com, r/write, and WolfPack Publishing - there is no way I could devote time to also being a mod on r/writing as well. So while I appreciate the offer from illuminatedwax, I must respectfully decline.

I absolutely, genuinely wish r/writing all the best and hope that this leads to it being a better sub that gives its users what they want. I believe that illuminatedwax is going to make the effort to do. Give him some time.

For those of you looking for something different, please come visit /r/write - I think you’ll like it there.

Cheers,

karl

thebadguyy · 3 months

Now, can we talk about writing?

Fucking yes.

lophyte · 3 months

I'd just like to add that illuminatedwax responded within a couple of hours when I asked him to add the IRC channel to the sidebar, and that was a couple of months ago.

This whole shitstorm seems to have started because he happened to not be responsive in the last week or so.

throwaway_writer · 3 months

Cogent and intelligent post, except one thing.

I didn't actually throw a fit. That was a joke. I thought that was obvious by the comment inside, but oh well. I think I'm funny.

EDIT: I can see why IW was a little raw though. People have been shitting wildly on him for this whole debacle.

EDIT 2: With that said, I'd still be glad to mod, if only to be someone visible who can help new authors market their work.

thecajunone · 3 months

Well this is dumb, I'm think I'm going to unsubscribe now. The whole point of subscribing was getting motivated by fellow writers, not a whole lot of that going around.

deshki · 3 months

The lack of communication was at fault here. That was your fault.

Lack of patience was another problem. That was our fault. Just make sure this community starts moving in a direction beneficial to writers of all kind, and to not ever leave us hanging.

Nobody knew you were even interested in writing until now, besides the, what, three posts in here?

Psyladine · 3 months

The craft is the real appeal of this subreddit. Can we have a sidebar of the most commonly cited rules of writing, as r/screenwriting has their dialogue cheatsheat? Twain, Leonard and Vonnegut come to mind.

Naberius0 · 3 months

So, I've been a long time lurker around here. I'd read stuff, occasionally upvote, and bugger off. I don't really have the wherewithall to post a lot of my stuff. I did roll out of bed to see the reactions and overreactions to VA being appointed moderator.

I think that yes the community should have some say in their moderation (/r/lgbt has been going through similar issues lately), but seeing the grounds he's been attacked on? I was never fond of /r/jailbait or anything like that, but I post/read a number of NSFW subreddits, and I did see a few of the attacks based on that alone. I don't know, feels a bit unfriendly to me at this point. So, my first post, and perhaps my last, but figured I'd throw in my two cents.

Kaladin_Stormblessed · 3 months

Thank you for stepping in and clearing these things up. I have to wonder if this isn't too little, too late, however.

From what I've been seeing, it looks like the biggest complaints are the sidebar, lack of FAQ and submission guidelines (tags). Any ideas on how you'll be addressing the concerns of the community on these matters?

Massawyrm · 3 months

Honestly I would like to see the end of self-promotion and critique posts on this subreddit. There are a number of GREAT critique subreddits, but because people innately want the most exposure, they choose the largest subreddit (where they are bound to be downvoted into oblivion) rather than the smaller subreddit that will embrace and properly critique their work. Likewise, I think most people want to see the end of "Hey my book is free on Kindle for the next two days, please download it!" posts.

Ultimately I feel that r/writing will be far better served by a community talking about writing and publishing rather than being drowned in posts asking to be read. I don't believe that the reddit needs to be subdivided any more than that.

felatiodeltoro · 3 months

I'm a writer. I literally subscribed to this subreddit yesterday. I have no input as to what needs to be done to this, or any other, subreddit. I just cane here because I thought it would be nice to involve myself with other redditors who write for a living. I have been shown otherwise. i'll be back in a few weeks.

Socialery · 3 months

As It happened, he did ban, delete posts, and then unban and undelete posts.

What also happened was a fucking witch hunt.

It's not a 'witch hunt' to be upset that you appointed the moderator and creator of r/picsofdeadjailbait, r/rape, r/beatingwomen and r/picsofdead kids to be in charge of our community. It is absolutely warranted that we are protective of this place, because we like it, and you are MIA, so there is noone else to protect it.

'm very passionate about both, and I hope to find the time to be a writer in the near future. I have a lot of friends who are aspiring authors. This is why I started /r/writing.

Actually you are on the record as stating that you went around creating as may subreddits as possible when the system rolled out specifically to 'subreddit squat' on them.

As Karlgraves, the guy who we wanted to be moderator, has said in another place:

Given that I-wax apparently has no intention of relinquishing control of r/writing (despite having no desire to interact with it), it is clear I will never be able to fully control r/writing. Ultimately, this is unacceptable for me. As can be seen by VA’s “Animal Farm” appointment as mod, there will always be a pallor of a threat or removal of control hanging over r/writing.

So any future mods be clear on this, you're not going to be in control of the subreddit. Illumwax can and might delete you at any time for any reason, until he steps down as a mod.

This whole thread is bullshit and does way too little, way too late. All I can do is urge r/writing to continue to migrate over to r/write. r/write is already better organized than r/writing ever was, and gained 1000 members from this crap yesterday alone. I suppose that's all we can thank illuminatedwax and violentacrez for.

HaloShy · 3 months

You haven't read enough. A few corrections:

So that's all that happened. violentacrez never banned anyone from /r/writing. The ban list is completely empty.

Yes he did. He then removed the ban. He said so himself. His reasons for banning were personal attacks, and he then reconsidered because he wanted to let people vent or something along those lines.

Not to mention that just about no one noticed that I added karlgraves.

Lots of people did. Many were happy about that. Unfortunately, the other mod you promoted made a big post first and then caused a shitstorm by banning someone. Admittedly, I think the shitstorm would have happened for other reasons that it eventually got to, but that initial meeting certainly served as a catalyst.

I love books (I mod /r/books) and I love writing. I'm very passionate about both, and I hope to find the time to be a writer in the near future. I have a lot of friends who are aspiring authors.

Can you please explain why you've only ever submitted twice to this subreddit in all four of the years since you created it, despite what I'm quoting above? If you have lots of deleted submissions, now would be a good time to clear the air.

A mod is someone that deals with the day-to-day trivialities of a subreddit: fishing spam out of the spam filter. Removing blogspam or offtopic posts. Helping other subcommunities (see sidebar --->) be seen. Helping people do things like writing contests or promote third party sites that mesh with /r/writing.

Again, can you explain why you haven't responded to the numerous requests to do exactly what you just said? The community does not have access to people's accounts, but many have come forward and said they have sent you private messages asking you to provide links, etc, and you ignored all of them. Like the previous comment, now would be a time to clear the air.

What a mod is not is the best writer. A mod is not the person with the most knowledge about writing. A mod is not the person who has the most works published.

Agreed. The mod, however, should be a writer. The lead moderator should be invested in the community and be knowledgeable about it. I would agree that a non-interested moderator could be an asset further down the line for the sole purpose of clearing out spam, but that's another discussion.

I can see that a lot of people say they want more out of this community than just a plain old mod, but so far I've only seen vague notions of how to improve this reddit,

Again, you haven't read enough then. There are many posts regarding what changes the community would like to see. A lot of explanations about the differences between r/writing and r/write were outlined in all of the posts that you deleted and apparently didn't read. I can provide links to where they are compiled elsewhere, but I think you want posts here now so people can upvote/downvote. To be perfectly honest I'm wary of going through all the trouble of finding all the links for you since I'm half expecting you to delete my comment after seeing wipe almost a dozen threads clear off the front page an hour ago.

Also, throwaway_writer, I'd be glad to consider, but despite not even having messaged me or #writing in the last couple weeks, he threw a fit about VA being made mod over him.

Again, you didn't read enough. He even said in his own post that he doesn't want the job. He was making a point that even he would be a better mod choice since he's actually a writer and has firsthand knowledge of the topic of this subreddit.

Now, onto a more general comment. This post is pretty good and positive, but it's about 48 hours too late. I repeated the term "clear the air" at least twice; you should have done this before taking action. Put yourself in the shoes of those who spoke up about the lack of moderation here--you're not seen to be posting, you're not replying to private messages, and then you promote some guy outside of the community without any warning, prompts, or response. How would you have reacted to an outsider showing up out of the blue with that role, regardless of their shady site history?

You also really need to address one of my first questions above. Where have you been? If you agree that a moderator should do all of those above things and you're passionate about the subreddit's topic, why have you posted so little? Don't you agree that it might be better to promote a handful of mods, give them some time to settle in and make sure none of them are mod abusing power trippers, and then step down?

Busangod · 3 months

wait, but what am i supposed to do with all these pitchforks?

thanks for the post. Now let's do all write good with each other!

miparasito · 3 months

I have one question and even though it's moot now, I hope someone can answer -- is ViolentAcrez the same person as the lady who runs the blog Violent Acres? Because even though that VA's hobby is stirring up drama on the internet, you have to count the blog as significant writing experience. Love or hate her opinions, she's a damned good writer.

TheRaven7 · 3 months

including /r/funny, which, to my knowledge, has not degenerated into a lawless hellhole full of horrible people

ಠ_ಠ

miss_contrary_girl · 3 months

It's a really big subreddit, for writers, and it makes sense to that it should have more than one moderator, and that at least one, if not all of them, be active writers. Why not just make karl_graves a moderator and work with him directly instead of requiring a proposal? I'm not convinced he'll be the best ever, but he's motivated, and it'll be the best thing to get r/writing re-integrated.

ps. I appreciate knowing the violentacrez wasn't an FU, because I found that more offensive than slacking in moderator duties. I have no beef against that guy, but just the idea that you might have meant it that way. So thanks for the clarification.

SurferGurl · 3 months

there's some things that really suck about this whole situation. first of all, people are being downvoted for expressing their opinions about this when there really shouldn't be any up or down votes. ALL voices in this debate need to be heard, no matter what is being said.

we can go on and on for days and weeks about ViolentAcrez' character and we won't get anywhere. basic fact: lots of people on reddit, not just in the r/writing sub, don't like him. message to ViolentAcrez: you can't go around whining that people don't like you when you've chosen to be a controversial high-profile reddit user -- and seem quite proud of your rep.

because of that, when illuminatedwax didn't communicate with the subscribers about anything, just appointed ViolentAcrez and Karlgraves as co-mods. in the time it took to ping these two people and ask them to be mods, illuminatedwax could have informed some or all of the community about his plans -- he could have run this idea up the flagpole, so to speak. that would have avoided lots of grief.

illuminatedwax claims he didn't know ViolentAcrez was so controversial. i don't buy that for a second. if you're on reddit, even occasionally, you just can't go around claiming you live under a rock.

yet, even if we go with illuminatedwax's fantasy that he innocently appointed an active, talented moderator as a "fixer," it doesn't change the fact that ViolentAcrez came into the community like he was a badass gunslinger sent in "to clean up this here town" and banned a subscriber right away was even more heavy handed. (who cares if he unbanned him right away? it was a cheesy thing to do.) add to that the fact that now, 12 hours or so later, the situation has devolved into illuminatedwax and ViolentAcrez and their posse of thugs engaging in a flame war with people who care a shit ton more for the community than they ever will.

at any point in this cluster fuck, illuminatedwax could have chosen to be humble and gracious and cooperative, and collaborated with the top contributors to fix problems that were, really, in the grand scheme of things, just minor issues.

and to think, after all this, illuminatedwax and ViolentAcrez are STILL making excuses, blaming others, and allowing the shit storm to continue to stink up this joint.

doesn't sound at all like good moderating to me. actually, it seems that any claims the mods make about how much they care about reddit and this community is total bullshit at this point, considering all the bad choices they keep making.

it should not matter which subscribers post in this community or how often they post. almost every single redditor was a lurker at one time, and some redditors continue to lurk in some communities and seldom if ever post, yet post actively in other communities. mods, however, really should be active in their communities and not just fixers. if fixer mods are needed, then there should be a designated, roving crew -- users known for their ability to remain as neutral as possible while fixing things that are actually broken. just sayin...

Deimorz · 3 months

violentacrez never banned anyone from /r/writing. The ban list is completely empty.

Check the moderation log, not the ban list.

TH3RM4L-Work · 3 months

I love both r/writing and r/write, let's just pick a mod and talk about writing.

I mod r/leangains and r/fitmeals if you would like help. I try to do my best at leaving the community to it's own and stepping in when I see it is needed.

Of course checking the Filters are always needed.

lngwstksgk · 3 months

First thing I think needs to be established is what, exactly this subreddit is for. I agree with what you say in the post about it being for the craft of writing, but lately that seems to be the minority opinion. I very much like karlgrave's idea (I think it was him, anyway) about a weekly brag thread and think it would go a long way toward controlling the "free book" thing. I'm not at all sure how to handle critiques, though, in this setting without some people taking bad advantage. Moving to a different subreddit isn't a solution, either, as evidenced by r/writersgroup.

Second thing is defining spam. To me, posting every thought in blog form is spam and posting your "free today only" book is also spam. Same with "10 tip" lists. What do others think?

AlloftheEverythings · 3 months

Thanks for clearing that up. I was new to the community and confused by all of this. Reading the comments in reply to this post... hilarious and depressing. Seems that the "bad" will always outweigh the "good" and people will keep mouth breathing their ignorant outrage all over the subreddit.

I'll check back with /r/writing when people stop getting their stupid juice all over the rug.

JennysDad · 3 months

Thank you for listening to the community.

zegota · 3 months

For the record, violentacrez did absolutely ban. He reversed the ban after we complained, which is why the banlist is empty.

monkihed · 3 months

Bye, /r/writing.

[deleted] · 3 months

Now, can we talk about writing?

People are, in /r/write.

Sheft · 3 months

I have a suggestion for choosing extra moderators. All the vocal parties in this bitchfest of the past week should be excluded from the list of potentials. Say what you want about the lack of moderation recently, but putting any of these shit-stirrers (stirred for our own good, of course) in a position of authority here would be a big mistake.

xsidekick409 · 3 months

Good management is about good communication. You did not in any way communicate to the community what you were doing when you added va and now you are trying to cover up your tracks. The lack of communication is unacceptable and for that reason alone you are still at fault for this entire situation. Do not blame people who frequent this sub for speculating and coming to conclusions with the information at hand. That's what a community does. You do not posses the qualities of a leader and should still yield your ownership of this sub to someone who does.

capgras_delusion · 3 months

Here are my previously-posted ideas:

Regarding book promotions//free books

Regarding the sidebar and a FAQ

Ideally I'd like to see sort of outline people can look at before they post, kind of like AskReddit. If you're completely new to writing, check out this link, if you want to promote your book, go here, if you want a critique, well, sorry, I don't have any ideas for that yet. I know it won't completely get rid of repeat posts and spam, but the community would at least have a resource to point to before downvoting something into oblivion.

RattusRattus · 3 months

Someone suggested we take away the downvote buttons, I'd like to second that. Also perhaps a general FAQ and new writers FAQ, which should consist solely of that Ira Glass quote.

I also think random pieces offered for critique can generate interesting conversations as much as random blog postings. Just spend some time with it before posting it and be clear about what you want. Tags are good a good suggestion.

Fudgefactor7 · 3 months

Honestly, I do not care one iota who is mod as long as (a) they do the job, (b) they do it well, (c) they aren't abusing power, and (d) are available for future snafus that might appear. I don't care about an individual's sexual predilections (or lack thereof), I just want a better, more vibrant community. If VA can do the job, cool; if not, then he shouldn't be considered. What I would want is a meritocracy, really, and nothing more.

renieri · 3 months

Y U NO maintain consistent moderation?

ObsidianSentinel · 3 months

I'm fairly new to Reddit, but I'll volunteer as a Moderator if one is needed. I'm an English Major and only have class twice a week, so Moderating wouldn't be a problem for me. Anyways, just a suggestion.

Deimorz · 3 months

So let's choose some people to help moderate.

Well, it doesn't qualify as a "person", but if you want some help keeping the spam-filter clear and such, I created a moderation bot recently that's being used successfully in quite a few subreddits now.

You can set it up to do simple things like "if a self-post gets filtered and the author of it has at least 10 comment karma, approve it". Conditions like that seem to almost always work well, self-posts are rarely used for spam, and spammers won't have even that small amount of karma.

StarbucksCoffee · 3 months

Well done, you are one of the best mods on reddit.

My request is to add more mods in /r/books and /r/writing to help clear the spam filter more faster.

renieri · 3 months

My only regret

HeroicGomez · 3 months

I think this is completely overblown. However, this:

a guy who (while creepy) has never done or posted or encouraged anything illegal

is completely untrue. And I'm pretty sure, deep down, you know it.

The lower this comment's score goes, the more obvious it becomes that astroturfing and sockpuppeting are all over these threads. VA's got tools all over reddit. Otherwise, comment before downvoting.

songcharts · 3 months

If you want to be taken seriously as a moderator you should probably refrain from deleting posts and censoring whatever you want.

remedialrob · 3 months

I'd never run into a post by the head man before. Seems like a reasonable dude. I approve and support his administration.

HITLARIOUS · 3 months

popcorn.gif

sje46 · 3 months

A big problem with VA isn't really that he's a moderator of less than respectable subreddits, but that he causes a lot of drama naturally. Not just by virtue of him creating these subreddits, but the ways he moderates them. I'm pretty sure that the first time /r/jailbait was banned had something to do with him immaturely making people mods who posted CP and shit because he was annoyed at the admins or some bullshit like that.

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